Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Your response:



I still don't see the word "Trinity" in your quote. That is the point but you are trying to change the subject because you have no answer.

There are many theological terms that are not in scripture but that doesn't mean that the teaching or doctrine that the term is conveying isn't in scripture.

Now...do you know who I AM is in scripture?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Why? What does it really matter? Do you think Catholics don't believe Jesus is Divine, the second Person of the Trinity? FYI we do.

However, you will not let this subject go. Here is the official position:

237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit. Catechism Catholic Church[emphasis added]

Notice the bold parts of the above sentences. The revelation of the Trinitarian mystery is not by reason, it is by Divine revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Now your turn to answer. Are you arguing Moses and Israel did not need Divine Revelation by the Holy Spirit to understand, by reason alone, the mystery of the Trinity or are you arguing that Israel received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost so they could understand the mystery of the Trinity? Which is it?

Is Divine Revelation by the Spirit needed or not? If Divine Revelation is needed where is your support Israel received the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost?

There is a lot more than mere "traces" of the "trinitarian being" in the OT. But of course, as I pointed out to Doc, the rose didn't bloom until the advent of Christ and the NT scriptures.

And how did the Holy Spirit come into this discussion? I never mentioned the Holy Spirit. Why are you trying to lead me down a rabbit trail? However, I do agree that Holy Spirit inspired the entire canon of the Old and New Testaments

I asked the question about Jesus and James to see if you think they were in agreement with Moses' understanding or did they did they understand the Shema differently than Moses did? Doc didn't want to answer the question I put to him about Deut 6:4, so I'm thinking maybe you Catholics think Moses was a unitarian and that he taught Israel that God is one person.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There are many theological terms that are not in scripture but that doesn't mean that the teaching or doctrine that the term is conveying isn't in scripture.

Now...do you know who I AM is in scripture?

Again trying to change the subject. Where is the word "trinity" in the Bible? Nowhere. Admit it.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Good. The OT was written in Hebrew by Hebrews...

...and FOR Hebrews...IMO. Why the REST of the world is enamored of this book is a mystery to me.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by boxcar

There is a lot more than mere "traces" of the "trinitarian being" in the OT. But of course, as I pointed out to Doc, the rose didn't bloom until the advent of Christ and the NT scriptures.

And how did the Holy Spirit come into this discussion? I never mentioned the Holy Spirit. Why are you trying to lead me down a rabbit trail? However, I do agree that Holy Spirit inspired the entire canon of the Old and New Testaments

I asked the question about Jesus and James to see if you think they were in agreement with Moses' understanding or did they did they understand the Shema differently than Moses did? Doc didn't want to answer the question I put to him about Deut 6:4, so I'm thinking maybe you Catholics think Moses was a unitarian and that he taught Israel that God is one person.

Stop deflecting.

I mentioned the Holy Spirit, because the Trinitarian Mystery is by Divine Revelation of the N.T. by the Holy Spirit. And, I gave you the Reformed teaching about the Trinity being hinted at in the O.T., but not proven. Also, I gave you the official Catholic teaching, which shows agreement with Sproul, about the O.T. hinting at the existence of the Trinity.

So I ask again? What are you saying regarding the O. T. actually proving the Trinity? Did Israel have Divine Revelation, by the Holy Spirit, prior to Pentecost for Israel to understand the Mystery of the Trinity? OR Divine Revelation is not needed and Israel solely through reason understood the Trinitarian mystery?

I have been patient and kind so far by not accusing you of teaching error, because I am not absolutely sure what you are saying, as evidenced by your Unitarian remark.

We, Doc and I, can agree looking back at the O.T. through the prism of Divine Revelation by the Holy Spirit of the N.T. we can see evidence of the existence of the Trinity. Conversely, without the Divine Revelation of the N.T. there is no proving the existence of the Trinity, solely by reason, in the O.T.

If you are trying to teach either Israel without Divine Revelation, solely through reason, understood the Mystery of the Trinity, than I state you are in error or If you are teaching that Israel had Divine Revelation, by the Holy Spirit, prior to Pentecost, you are in error.

So which one is it boxcar? Maybe it is neither and you agree with Sproul's and the Catholic Church's interpretations that the existence of the Trinity is only hinted at in the O.T. and is only proven by Divine Revelation contained in the N.T.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And how did the Holy Spirit come into this discussion? I never mentioned the Holy Spirit. Why are you trying to lead me down a rabbit trail? However, I do agree that Holy Spirit inspired the entire canon of the Old and New Testaments

There is a difference between inspiration and revelation. Inspiration is God guiding someone to express a thought or will of God i.e Scripture. Divine Revelation is the actual revealing by God of a Divine insight. i.e the commandments

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

This is number one. Number two:

And the same challenge goes out to you, Mr. Actor. Should be a piece of cake for you since you once boasted that your philosophy is logic.

I'll be waiting with bated breath, gentlemen.

And by the way, Hanky, the Ethiopian and leopard analogy in scripture is valid because the central idea behind Jeremiah drawing a parallel between them and man's sinful behavior is that neither can change what they are. It's not within their power.

.

See, Hankly...man does have limitations.

Really?

Aristotle's Law of Identity

"Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is. "This leaf is red, solid, dry, rough, and flammable." "This book is white, and has 312 pages." "This coin is round, dense, smooth, and has a picture on it." In all three of these cases we are referring to an entity with a specific identity; the particular type of identity, or the trait discussed, is not important. Their identities include all of their features, not just those mentioned."

I never asserted that it could be violated.I said that it did not support your opinion with respect to mans nature.And it does not.

No its not. A mammals skin pigment is in no way comparable to the "nature" of a human being.One being a fixed genetic expression, the other referring to very malleable human behavioral characteristics.

[Lose The Juice]

Originally Posted by boxcar

. Besides...biblical Christianity is nothing less than Fulfilled Judaism...

Is it really? What part of Judaism (or anything remotely ethical) did Father Tiso and his appalling pro-Nazi regime fulfill?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Again trying to change the subject. Where is the word "trinity" in the Bible? Nowhere. Admit it.

It doesn't have to be in scripture. What part the explanation in my last post didn't you understand? Theological terms are sometimes used by theologians as convenient and succinct labels to define or describe complex doctrines that are in scripture. The doctrine of the "rapture" is another such theological term.

Again, do you know who I AM is in scripture?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Hank

Really?

Aristotle's Law of Identity

"Everything that exists has a specific nature. Each entity exists as something in particular and it has characteristics that are a part of what it is. "This leaf is red, solid, dry, rough, and flammable." "This book is white, and has 312 pages." "This coin is round, dense, smooth, and has a picture on it." In all three of these cases we are referring to an entity with a specific identity; the particular type of identity, or the trait discussed, is not important. Their identities include all of their features, not just those mentioned."

I never asserted that it could be violated.I said that it did not support your opinion with respect to mans nature.And it does not.

No its not. A mammals skin pigment is in no way comparable to the "nature" of a human being.One being a fixed genetic expression, the other referring to very malleable human behavioral characteristics.

All laws of logic can be violated. If the Law of Identity can't be violated, then it's not a law. You don't know how to violate the law, do you?

I explained how the biblical analogy applies and why it applies. Also, go back and read your definition. This is what YOU posted! Both the Ethiopian and the leopard possess characteristics that are peculiar to their particular identity. Hint: a key word in your definition is "specific".

Have a nice, evening, Hanky.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by boxcar

It doesn't have to be in scripture. What part the explanation in my last post didn't you understand? Theological terms are sometimes used by theologians as convenient and succinct labels to define or describe complex doctrines that are in scripture. The doctrine of the "rapture" is another such theological term.

Again, do you know who I AM is in scripture?

Those opposed to Jesus would say he was nothing more than a madman equating himself with God......Next question.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Lose The Juice

Is it really? What part of Judaism (or anything remotely ethical) did Father Tiso and his appalling pro-Nazi regime fulfill?

Got me, chief. Who is Father Tiso? Also, my statement about Fulfilled Judaism was strictly a theological one, and isn't specific to any professing Christian.

[Hank]

Originally Posted by boxcar

All laws of logic can be violated. If the Law of Identity can't be violated, then it's not a law. You don't know how to violate the law, do you?

I explained how the biblical analogy applies and why it applies. Also, go back and read your definition. This is what YOU posted! Both the Ethiopian and the leopard possess characteristics that are peculiar to their particular identity. Hint: a key word in your definition is "specific".

Have a nice, evening, Hanky.

Good evening indeed,Get some rest. Because your post is "completely" incoherent suggesting that you are either sleep deprived or have a high fever.

[Lose The Juice]

Tiso:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/this-d...emium-1.710870

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

There is a difference between inspiration and revelation. Inspiration is God guiding someone to express a thought or will of God i.e Scripture. Divine Revelation is the actual revealing by God of a Divine insight. i.e the commandments

Did not the prophets express God's will in scripture? If so, then they were divinely ordained vessels through whom He expressed his revelation. You're confusing "divine revelation" with divine illumination, i.e. God opening up people's minds and hearts to understand, receive and respond to His truth.

Luke 24:45
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them...
NASB


Acts 16:14
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
NASB

Paul spoke of a "spirit of revelation in the knowledge of him" (Eph 1:17-18), which again is God supernaturally illuminating a soul to understand, receive and respond to his knowledge.