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Old 07-11-2018, 12:14 PM   #556
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You must have a great deal of faith in "whom" assigns the net asset value, unless you believe it's totally non-human driven.

"Whom" gives you the market value of all it’s holdings.....Trust factor these figs are legit

"Whom" gives you the number of shares outstanding......Trust factor these figs are accurate
This is a regulated industry. And it is non-human driven. There is a market price for a bond the same as there is a market price for an equity. Some of them may be thinly traded but whatever that last trade was is the value.

I think you might have a fundamental misunderstanding of what would happen to a company that misstated either the last trade or shares outstanding data.

I own Pimco, Doubleline, and Blackrock funds. And yes, I trust all of them to provide accurate data.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:19 PM   #557
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This is a regulated industry. And it is non-human driven. There is a market price for a bond the same as there is a market price for an equity. Some of them may be thinly traded but whatever that last trade was is the value.

I think you might have a fundamental misunderstanding of what would happen to a company that misstated either the last trade or shares outstanding data.

I own Pimco, Doubleline, and Blackrock funds. And yes, I trust all of them to provide accurate data.

There's no "fundamental misunderstanding" on my part in the slightest. You're a very trusting fellow.....I guess that's what I like about you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:31 PM   #558
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There's no "fundamental misunderstanding" on my part in the slightest. You're a very trusting fellow.....I guess that's what I like about you.
Can I ask why someone shouldn’t trust these numbers?

You do seem to be implying they may not be real. Do you have some basis for that belief?

Do you feel the same about the assets held by mutual funds and ETF’s possibly being misstated or is this only CEF’s that are suspect?

Will be away for a few hours but looking forward to hearing why I should be less trusting.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:21 PM   #559
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CEF's, unlike ETFs, offer very limited transparency. At any time, fund investors may not be aware of the future strategies the fund managers will employ.

This in turn, leads to the problems of CEF's being highly leveraged. Many CEF's invest using leverage (debt) as a large part of the overall strategy, thus making these funds far more volatile.

CEF's also have management fees that are considerably higher than the fees that come with ETFs or other passive type investments. These fees can quickly build up against any investor gains.

In closing, you can only sell a CEF IF you can find a buyer, as there aren't enough reliable buyers out there when it comes time to sell...…

Simply put, My Money goes elsewhere where it's safer and easy to liquidate at a moments notice...Just my opinion and experience, your results may differ.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:44 PM   #560
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For levered CEFs the fees cover the interest on the leverage loans as well as management fees so it's not as bad as it seems.

Not usually buy and hold material, the strategy is to buy at a discount and sell when it narrows or when your capital gains equal about one years distributions.

I don't have any CEFs at the moment because it is a lot of work watching them and getting in and out at the right time ,but some people have a lot of success with it. A good source of information is the Morningstar CEF discussion board.

FYI Dan Ivascyn chief investment officer at PIMCO is heavily invested in several fixed income CEFs he manages.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:08 PM   #561
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CEF's, unlike ETFs, offer very limited transparency. At any time, fund investors may not be aware of the future strategies the fund managers will employ.

This in turn, leads to the problems of CEF's being highly leveraged. Many CEF's invest using leverage (debt) as a large part of the overall strategy, thus making these funds far more volatile.

CEF's also have management fees that are considerably higher than the fees that come with ETFs or other passive type investments. These fees can quickly build up against any investor gains.

In closing, you can only sell a CEF IF you can find a buyer, as there aren't enough reliable buyers out there when it comes time to sell...…

Simply put, My Money goes elsewhere where it's safer and easy to liquidate at a moments notice...Just my opinion and experience, your results may differ.
Fair enough. I’m not trying to talk you or anyone else into an investment they aren’t comfortable with. I will note that ETF’s and mutual funds also require a buyer and seller, not just CEF’s.

The scarcity of buyers drives the managers of ETF’s and mutual funds into liquidating assets at exactly the time they may want to be buying. The manager of a CEF shrugs his shoulder’s and looks for bargains since he doesn’t have to meet a demand for redemptions. The inability to sell a CEF at a reasonable price near NAV is actually a pretty good signal that you probably shouldn’t be selling it anyway.

@plainolbill: I understand CEF’s are excellent trading vehicles because of the obvious inefficiencies that occur when retail investors rush in and out. But I’m a long term holder of the bond funds I purchased. If you get a good entry point and are in it for the income generated, it doesn’t matter if you get a z score approaching +3 as recently happened wth one of my funds. I shrug my shoulders knowing there isn’t a great likelyhood the discount will narrow further but I’m not in it for capital gains (though they are really nice as a bonus).

Dan Ivascyn, Jeff Gundlach, and Larry Fink manage my bond portfolio. They charge a bit for it but it’s absolutely been worth it.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:36 PM   #562
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Half way in and still less than 2 cents



Amazing how the best stock in the world can go unnoticed for so long.
yousee all you need is a little patience.

just sold half my position and got more than a triple on it. gonna re enter if priced drifts lower.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:36 PM   #563
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Fair enough. I’m not trying to talk you or anyone else into an investment they aren’t comfortable with. I will note that ETF’s and mutual funds also require a buyer and seller, not just CEF’s.

The scarcity of buyers drives the managers of ETF’s and mutual funds into liquidating assets at exactly the time they may want to be buying. The manager of a CEF shrugs his shoulder’s and looks for bargains since he doesn’t have to meet a demand for redemptions. The inability to sell a CEF at a reasonable price near NAV is actually a pretty good signal that you probably shouldn’t be selling it anyway.

@plainolbill: I understand CEF’s are excellent trading vehicles because of the obvious inefficiencies that occur when retail investors rush in and out. But I’m a long term holder of the bond funds I purchased. If you get a good entry point and are in it for the income generated, it doesn’t matter if you get a z score approaching +3 as recently happened wth one of my funds. I shrug my shoulders knowing there isn’t a great likelyhood the discount will narrow further but I’m not in it for capital gains (though they are really nice as a bonus).

Dan Ivascyn, Jeff Gundlach, and Larry Fink manage my bond portfolio. They charge a bit for it but it’s absolutely been worth it.
Not so with Mutual Funds, they don't trade like stocks or ETF's. You are transacting directly with the fund. Transactions with funds happen after the market closes(buying or selling) when a new net asset value is set(price). When there's lots of redemptions, your selling prices usually plunges, similar in that respect to prices on stocks and ETF's. Closed end funds trade like stocks.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:38 PM   #564
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Not so with Mutual Funds, they don't trade like stocks or ETF's. You are transacting directly with the fund. Transactions with funds happen after the market closes(buying or selling) when a new net asset value is set(price). When there's lots of redemptions, your selling prices usually plunges, similar in that respect to prices on stocks and ETF's. Closed end funds trade like stocks.

Don, who is ______, won't be giving you a reply any time soon---->Banned
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Old 08-07-2018, 01:24 PM   #565
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Don, who is ______, won't be giving you a reply any time soon---->Banned
I gotta start keeping a scorecard for Off Topic.
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:32 AM   #566
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Nice to see GOLD, well touted here, still a store of value and good in a crisis


must be all those Turks buying
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:38 AM   #567
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Nice to see GOLD, well touted here, still a store of value and good in a crisis


must be all those Turks buying
Yep. Gold is down $16 or so as I type this.

And it probably will head even lower in the coming weeks as China, other Third World countries and EU currency all cratering as well.

These events strengthens the US dollar, which is the driving catalyst to lower gold prices in the future.

As least that is how I see it.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:43 PM   #568
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Seems the big money is trading stuff like TSLA and AAPL this week, so tbsitw SFOR is tanking
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Old 08-29-2018, 02:42 PM   #569
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nasdaq 8000,bring out the party hats.The people calling for a crash from 4000 dont look too good.
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Old 08-29-2018, 11:09 PM   #570
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Too big to fail
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