crw wagering

[green80]

Does anyone know which tracks ban CRW wagering? Is it just OP and Tampa or are there more?

[PaceAdvantage]

Define computer robotic wagering and define how exactly they are banned?

You mean, they banned some KNOWN ones...do people think the wagers these guys submit are stamped CRW?

Let's take Oaklawn, as they've been mentioned a bunch of times lately. Who did they ban? How did they ban them? And how did they know who they were banning? Was it an individual? Was it a hub KNOWN for CRW participation?

What are the clues and signals for a track that they have CRW coming into their pools? Remember, we know bets are BATCH SENT (we know this because the industry constantly uses this as the excuse for massive odds changes after the bell), so how does a track know that a BATCH of wagers sent from off-track has CRW among it? How does it differentiate the "normal bets" from the CRW bets? Do they go through them with a fine tooth comb to note time stamps and then notice a large string of bets placed within one second or so?

What exactly is the forensic process here? Or like I said, are these types of bets stamped CRW!

[PaceAdvantage]

My point is, a track may say they have banned CRW, but I don't believe that for a second, that they've banned ALL CRW...impossible.

[green80]

Banned may not have been the correct term. From what I understand, tracks such as Oaklawn did not make certain ADW's the "deals" they wanted so they could give their CRW players the rebate they need to be profitable.

[lamboguy]

they didn't give them the direct tote hook ups. without the hook up, they have ZERO edge.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

they didn't give them the direct tote hook ups. without the hook up, they have ZERO edge.

Name one track that has given anybody "a direct tote hook up."

An ADW giving a customer access to something on their end is a different story. I could be completely wrong on this, but I doubt very much any Thoroughbred track is giving any individual or syndicate a "direct tote hook up," whatever that means.

[Cholly]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Name one track that has given anybody "a direct tote hook up."

An ADW giving a customer access to something on their end is a different story. I could be completely wrong on this, but I doubt very much any Thoroughbred track is giving any individual or syndicate a "direct tote hook up," whatever that means.

from Matt Hegarty aritlce in DRF:
"For 15 years, investor-owned computerized robotic wagering programs, or CRWs, have performed the same dual analyses, but those programs are provided with a direct interface into the bet-processing system so that the programs can see every detail of the betting pools in real time and send thousands of wagers into the pools in a matter of seconds. Those systems are also operated exclusively at off-track betting outlets that reward the operators with rich rebates on their handle, allowing the owners of the systems to post profits at a lower return on investment than the typical bettor in the parimutuel pool."

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by green80

Banned may not have been the correct term. From what I understand, tracks such as Oaklawn did not make certain ADW's the "deals" they wanted so they could give their CRW players the rebate they need to be profitable.

Supposedly Oaklawn wasn't letting adw's like RGS and ETC into their pools in previous years, who knows if that's still true. The GM of Tampa said he allows them in their pools but charge a higher signal fee.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Cholly

from Matt Hegarty aritlce in DRF:
"For 15 years, investor-owned computerized robotic wagering programs, or CRWs, have performed the same dual analyses, but those programs are provided with a direct interface into the bet-processing system so that the programs can see every detail of the betting pools in real time and send thousands of wagers into the pools in a matter of seconds. Those systems are also operated exclusively at off-track betting outlets that reward the operators with rich rebates on their handle, allowing the owners of the systems to post profits at a lower return on investment than the typical bettor in the parimutuel pool."

I read that to mean the ADW is allowing the customer to have some sort of better access to their internal system...not the track itself. There is a lot that is poorly defined in this discussion.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I read that to mean the ADW is allowing the customer to have some sort of better access to their internal system...not the track itself. There is a lot that is poorly defined in this discussion.

the wording part is very vague, but we can get one of those terminals if we put up $40,000 to buy it and we will be in whole different world. there are probably reason's why you have to go through an offshore adw to get this access that i am not that clear on.

[green80]

What I was trying to determine if the average bettor's bottom line is any better at the tracks that do not cater to the CRW players in the form of low signal fees to their ADW's (or anything else). I know for the last couple of years my ROI is better at Oaklawn than any other track. Could this be because the CRW's aren't milking all the "juice" out of the pools?

[PaceAdvantage]

I still think way too much is being made of this. If anything, there might be a timing edge, similar to what High Frequency Traders get when they move their servers closer to the exchange servers...

I don't believe that CRWs get some sort of magical information that the rest of us aren't privy to...tell me where I'm wrong. And don't tell me how they are getting trifecta and superfecta will-pays...

[green80]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

My point is, a track may say they have banned CRW, but I don't believe that for a second, that they've banned ALL CRW...impossible.

May 3, 2015 The Times Record

At Oaklawn Park, CRWs are on a hit list.

“We simply refuse to allow them into our pools,” Bobby Geiger, Oaklawn’s director of wagering and simulcast, said in an Email. He said Oaklawn realized more than 10 years ago that “these parasites would kill the grandstand player and ultimately the wagering component of the sport, so we eliminated them from our distribution portfolio. “They’ve tried to sneak into our pools on multiple occasions … but we constantly monitor our pools for the activity,” he said. “WE ALWAYS CATCH THEM. The practice is so egregious and unfair to the other patrons in the pools that is impossible to disguise.”





- See more at: http://swtimes.com/sports/sports-col....yNPHZFsO.dpuf

[Track Collector]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

I still think way too much is being made of this. If anything, there might be a timing edge, similar to what High Frequency Traders get when they move their servers closer to the exchange servers...

I don't believe that CRWs get some sort of magical information that the rest of us aren't privy to...tell me where I'm wrong. And don't tell me how they are getting trifecta and superfecta will-pays...

I do not say this as one who knows, but wonder if "this" is how CRWs derive their advantages:

CRWs obviously have the ability to fire in lots of wagers at the last minute.
CRWs have an extremely high likelihood of being associated with a high level handicapping methodology, that is, one that has the ability to identify what it believes is a "true" value (i.e. odds) for a race participant.

Then all that remains is to compare as close to post time as possible the current odds vs. the "true" value odds, then make the associated value wagers.

You and I can see the "approximate" odds as posted on the odds board. We can even access sites which show the actual dollars of each horse, and compute more accurate odds. By doing so, we might be able to see that instead of 3-1, a horse's odds are really 3.29-1. The problem with these calculations is that they are static, and are only accurate at the instantaneous moment the tote system cycles thru the odds. I suspect the tote system continually collects wagers in real time, but is not programmed to cycle thru and display this info except per the predetermined cycle time (like every 30 seconds close to Post Time). At perhaps 2-6 seconds before someone "thinks" a race is going to go off, a CRW could be set into motion to calculate the existing odds using the RAW wagering data not yet displayed to the public, and do its' thing.

The number of folks using CRWs is likely very low, but they are still competing against each other. I would suspect that the algorithms that they use take this into consideration. CRWs also live in an imperfect world of not knowing for sure what the final odds will be, but the picture they use to make their wagering decisions is vastly more accurate than the one 99.999% will see.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by Track Collector

I do not say this as one who knows, but wonder if "this" is how CRWs derive their advantages:

CRWs obviously have the ability to fire in lots of wagers at the last minute.
CRWs have an extremely high likelihood of being associated with a high level handicapping methodology, that is, one that has the ability to identify what it believes is a "true" value (i.e. odds) for a race participant.

Then all that remains is to compare as close to post time as possible the current odds vs. the "true" value odds, then make the associated value wagers.

You and I can see the "approximate" odds as posted on the odds board. We can even access sites which show the actual dollars of each horse, and compute more accurate odds. By doing so, we might be able to see that instead of 3-1, a horse's odds are really 3.29-1. The problem with these calculations is that they are static, and are only accurate at the instantaneous moment the tote system cycles thru the odds. I suspect the tote system continually collects wagers in real time, but is not programmed to cycle thru and display this info except per the predetermined cycle time (like every 30 seconds close to Post Time). At perhaps 2-6 seconds before someone "thinks" a race is going to go off, a CRW could be set into motion to calculate the existing odds using the RAW wagering data not yet displayed to the public, and do its' thing.

The number of folks using CRWs is likely very low, but they are still competing against each other. I would suspect that the algorithms that they use take this into consideration. CRWs also live in an imperfect world of not knowing for sure what the final odds will be, but the picture they use to make their wagering decisions is vastly more accurate than the one 99.999% will see.

Here's a hypothetical example of how CRW helps.

Lets say there's a huge pentafecta carryover and mr CRW wants to invest 10k into the penta, it's a 12 horse field so there are 95,000 possible outcomes. The CRW can be programmed to invest the entire 10k in the most efficient manner covering the combos that exactly reflect the opinion of the bettor. The computer can spit out hundreds of small tickets that are structured in a perfect way as to not overlap....unless the user wants an overlap to get something twice. You can't do that nearly as well if you're doing this the old fashioned way. Try getting a pen and paper and writing out dozens of tickets by hand and then standing at a SAM machine at a live racetrack (or calling into a bet taker on the phone) it's not even close to being as efficient.