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05-25-2019, 02:09 PM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker
Pretty weak crop actually.
Pioneer of the Nile is the only notable Derby starter other than Summer Bird, and that is because he is a pretty damn good sire.
Outside of Summer Bird, did any of the other Derby runners in 2009 win a graded stakes race over a mile against elders? Looking at the names, I'm not sure they did. There isn't even a good sprinter in the bunch.
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Pioneer of the Nile was also a good horse on the track. That's why he was favored in the Derby. Not all the best horses ran in the Derby that year. Mumings, who was a very fast sprinter who could carry his speed. Dunkirk also performed well throughout the TC that year. Then let's not forget Rachel Alexandra.
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05-25-2019, 02:19 PM
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#17
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 11,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
Pioneer of the Nile was also a good horse on the track. That's why he was favored in the Derby. Not all the best horses ran in the Derby that year. Mumings, who was a very fast sprinter who could carry his speed. Dunkirk also performed well throughout the TC that year. Then let's not forget Rachel Alexandra.
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Pioneer of the Nile never ran another race after finishing 11th in the Preakness. He never ran against an elder horse.
He mopped up the West Coast/Santa Anita circuit prior to the Derby by beating Mr. Hot Stuff, Take The Points, and Papa Clem. A couple of those ran for a while and never did much of anything.
As for Dunkirk, he ran 11th in the Derby and runner-up to Summer Bird in the Belmont only to never be seen in a race again on the race track after 5 career races. Dunkirk never won a Black Type race, much less a Graded Stakes race.
Last edited by Lemon Drop Husker; 05-25-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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05-25-2019, 04:33 PM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker
Pretty weak crop actually.
Pioneer of the Nile is the only notable Derby starter other than Summer Bird, and that is because he is a pretty damn good sire.
Outside of Summer Bird, did any of the other Derby runners in 2009 win a graded stakes race over a mile against elders? Looking at the names, I'm not sure they did. There isn't even a good sprinter in the bunch.
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+1
This is the problem with assigning too much importance to restricted races for three year olds. If the crop is iffy or the best horses in the crop aren't running, you can win those races without beating much.
That's what makes the BC Classic, along with Dubai and the Pegasus, an extremely important measuring stick. You face multiple generations of horses in those races. In the modern era, winning those races is essential if you are going to make claims of greatness. We will go 100 years before a mare wins a BC Classic and loses another one by a head again.
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05-25-2019, 04:45 PM
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#19
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Lincoln, NE
Posts: 11,474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
+1
This is the problem with assigning too much importance to restricted races for three year olds. If the crop is iffy or the best horses in the crop aren't running, you can win those races without beating much.
That's what makes the BC Classic, along with Dubai and the Pegasus, an extremely important measuring stick. You face multiple generations of horses in those races. In the modern era, winning those races is essential if you are going to make claims of greatness. We will go 100 years before a mare wins a BC Classic and loses another one by a head again.
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Zenyatta was special. Really special.
I was yet again there, for that race. I was full-fisted on Blame as my play of the weekend.
I can't tell you how much I was concerned about the great mare running him down in the stretch.
They gave out a cd of Zenyatta's 20 or 21 race career (I can't remember right now) when we arrived that year. I still watch it every once in a while. Truly incredible. She was special.
We all felt guilty about rooting for Blame to win.
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05-26-2019, 07:36 AM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker
Zenyatta was special. Really special.
I was yet again there, for that race. I was full-fisted on Blame as my play of the weekend.
I can't tell you how much I was concerned about the great mare running him down in the stretch.
They gave out a cd of Zenyatta's 20 or 21 race career (I can't remember right now) when we arrived that year. I still watch it every once in a while. Truly incredible. She was special.
We all felt guilty about rooting for Blame to win.
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Blame was robbed for HOY that year. Zenyatta beat up on a bunch of weak Cal fillies and mares never leaving her state. Blame won grade 1's in open competition and beat Zenyatta in their only meeting in the BC Classic. Zenyatta was the beneficiary of extreme hype in the name of "girl power". Not saying she could have not accomplished more in a braver campaign, but Eclipse Awards should not be based on running up a string of wins against weak competition and losing in the one race you run in open competition. She was an exceptional mare but her connections ran a cowardly campaign and should not have been rewarded with the HOY. A disservice was done to both the mare and racing.
I was proud to have bet on and rooted for the better and more deserving horse, Blame.
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05-26-2019, 10:16 AM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobphilo
Blame was robbed for HOY that year. Zenyatta beat up on a bunch of weak Cal fillies and mares never leaving her state. .
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You sure about never leaving the state?
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05-26-2019, 12:17 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elhelmete
You sure about never leaving the state?
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My mistake. She ran once, winning the Apple Blossom Hcp at the Fair Grounds.
Last edited by bobphilo; 05-26-2019 at 12:25 PM.
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05-26-2019, 01:08 PM
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#23
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regular user
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 37,506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker
Pretty weak crop actually.
Pioneer of the Nile is the only notable Derby starter other than Summer Bird, and that is because he is a pretty damn good sire.
Outside of Summer Bird, did any of the other Derby runners in 2009 win a graded stakes race over a mile against elders? Looking at the names, I'm not sure they did. There isn't even a good sprinter in the bunch.
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Well, how about Quality Road , he was something and his fee's are going up consistently?constantly now up to 150k, I think.
bobphilo-
. I don't think Z ever raced in Nola. Maybe the AB is @ Oaklawn.2wice
__________________
donut believe the hype...
Last edited by Racetrack Playa; 05-26-2019 at 01:12 PM.
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05-26-2019, 01:49 PM
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#24
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regular user
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 37,506
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Quality Road
09 Waddasummer
I know he didn't race in the derby , just really liked him out of that crop. 135 was my rookie summer, went to the spa mid season for the day , 10 cent supers blew my mind, been stuck since then
__________________
donut believe the hype...
Last edited by Racetrack Playa; 05-26-2019 at 01:50 PM.
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05-26-2019, 02:49 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racetrack Playa
Well, how about Quality Road , he was something and his fee's are going up consistently?constantly now up to 150k, I think.
bobphilo-
. I don't think Z ever raced in Nola. Maybe the AB is @ Oaklawn.2wice
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You're right. strike 2 for me on Zenyata trivia. It was at Oaklawn.
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05-26-2019, 09:49 PM
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#26
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Just another Facist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Now in Houston
Posts: 52,611
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Until another filly wins the Woodword. I’ll consider RA a great filly
__________________
WE ARE THE DUMBEST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET!
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05-26-2019, 11:55 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustRalph
Until another filly wins the Woodword. I’ll consider RA a great filly
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The Woodward is a prep race. It's like winning the Awesome Again.
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05-27-2019, 01:45 AM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker
Zenyatta was special. Really special.
I was yet again there, for that race. I was full-fisted on Blame as my play of the weekend.
I can't tell you how much I was concerned about the great mare running him down in the stretch.
They gave out a cd of Zenyatta's 20 or 21 race career (I can't remember right now) when we arrived that year. I still watch it every once in a while. Truly incredible. She was special.
We all felt guilty about rooting for Blame to win.
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Rachel had a phenomenal 3 year-old campaign...but was a disappointment as a 4 year-old. Zenyatta, on the other hand, scared the daylights out of the best male horses in the land twice, in the BC Classic...as an AGED MARE. My money says that Rachel's accomplishments will be duplicated LONG before Zenyatta's will. Rachel was special...but Zenyatta was UNIQUE!
__________________
Live to play another day.
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05-27-2019, 03:33 AM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Palm Beach, Florida
Posts: 2,465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilanesp
The Woodward is a prep race. It's like winning the Awesome Again.
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To call the Woodward a "prep race" for the BC Classic is merely a device to degrade the accomplishment of a horse who wins it . The Woodward was around long before the BC Classic and Awesome Again and can stand on it's own. Prep races, such as the Florida Derby, Santa Anita Derby and the Blue Grass are commonly refereed to as Derby preps and are mainly used for that purpose. Same thing with the Jim Dandy for the Travers. However when referring to a horses career even they are also refereed to by their proper names, especially when a horse wins them. Not every horse who runs in the Woodward uses it to prep for the BC Classic. That is not what it was created for. The is true for the JC Gold Cup, which was part of the NY Fall Championship Season. The way you are using it loosely, any race which precedes a big race, including an allowance race, may be downgraded to a prep. When a Woodward winner goes to stud you do not just refer to them as merely a BC Classic prep winner unless you want to degrade their accomplishment and it is clear how you are using it here. Your referring to the Woodward as a prep, while loosely correct, is not an attempt to best describe it but a lawyers technique to downplay it's importance.
Last edited by bobphilo; 05-27-2019 at 03:43 AM.
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05-27-2019, 04:08 AM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Rachel had a phenomenal 3 year-old campaign...but was a disappointment as a 4 year-old. Zenyatta, on the other hand, scared the daylights out of the best male horses in the land twice, in the BC Classic...as an AGED MARE. My money says that Rachel's accomplishments will be duplicated LONG before Zenyatta's will. Rachel was special...but Zenyatta was UNIQUE!
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Plenty of horses have won the BC Classic and then lost the race the following year both before and after Zenyatta.
Plenty of horses have won the Apple Blossom, Milady, Lady's Secret, Clement Hirsch, and Vanity multiple times.
That said, I don't think many horses have run in the same 4 races for 3 straight years...so there' s that.
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