Iran (and Obama?) Lied about Nukes

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Because he tweets about those things everyday at great lengths.

You keep arguing about things like this while admitting that you don't know anything about the specifics. But you insist that Trump is right and everyone else is wrong, without any data. You might try Google.

If you did, you would find that people in the industry estimated that over 20,000 solar panel installers would lose their jobs, and maybe a few hundred new jobs in manufacturing would be created.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/23/news...ump/index.html

cause you don't know either and you keep saying tariffs are bad for solar panel and the solar panel instillation employment. I really didnt realize that solar panels and soalr panel instilation created so many jobs and had such an impact on the economy like the auto industry does.


yea and long term if we manufactured more of our own solar panels or manufactured more of the products they are made from wouldnt that increase jobs?

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

This has nothing to do with anything. I want a US economy making stuff it can export.



It doesn't show anything. Unemployment has been steadily dropping for awhile. If anything it means we shouldn't be putting workers into industries they aren't needed in like steel, shirts, and ties. Services, STEM, stuff we can export should be the focus... where we have the advantages.



Of course it is! But what he is making should be something he's competitive at globally so he can sell it here there and everywhere.



Why would he do that? He has to pay American workers more. The ties will be more expensive domestically and a guy in another country won't buy them because another country can make and sell him the same thing cheaper.



You have to train the workers and open steel mills. These are upfront expenses before you begin to turn a profit. If a profit was there why isn't someone doing it already? This is all simple Economics 101 Supply/Demand stuff. We supply about 75% of our steel inputs. The rest of the world supplies the other 25% cheaper than we could do it ourselves. If we could do it the American worker and investor would already be seizing on the opportunity to turn a profit. Instead they go elsewhere for their profits.

The problem with a tariff policy is that if we decide to make that steel 25% of steel more expensive so the American investor/worker can turn a profit... Sure we can hire more steel workers and open more mills but that investor/worker still won't compete globally because their steel is cheaper and they already have a surplus.

PLUS you lose out on the potentially greater profits of that investor/worker doing something else they can sell to a wider market.

Here is a domestic example:

If Trump were to place a tax (tariffs are taxes remember) on all forms of news distribution but printed form what would the outcome be? Sure magazines and newspapers would hire more people. The Dennis the Menaces of the neighborhood can get back to their paper routes. But would you be going all in to invest in the local newspaper? Is that a sound long term strategy in your eyes?

I lost interest after point 5 as they become repetitive.

lots of your statement seem to support or care about europe and their economy more then that of ours USA.


Sure it does, it shows Trump is doing exactly what he said he would in making the economy stronger with more employment.


put us the USA first


pay a little more to get a better return for the American people , you know put us the USA first.


why we dont have any steel workers or steel mills? Maybe with the new tariffs the American investor will be more then happy to invest in American made products.



do you have a economics degree? Do you own multi million or billion dollar businesses?



Ill take Presidents Trumps word for it cause he already has the economy moving in the best direction for the American people.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yeah...well...it's the kind of world in which we live, sadly. There won't be any
beating of swords into plowshares or spears into pruning hooks in this age.

Oh yeah... I don't have a problem with our military spending. I just meant in general.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

pay a little more to get a better return for the American people , you know put us the USA first.

why we dont have any steel workers or steel mills? Maybe with the new tariffs the American investor will be more then happy to invest in American made products.

do you have a economics degree? Do you own multi million or billion dollar businesses?

I'm fine with paying a little more for American made stuff. American made though is a feature not the rest of the world cares about. So when I'm staring at rolled Chinese steel vs. American steel I may pay the 5% more for it. The problem is the rest of the world won't so I'm going to create steel mills and plants and train workers for a product I can sell in only one place...? What do I do if I ever have a surplus? I'm screwed...

He will but its the same problem as its short sighted. Governments come and go but the laws of economics remain the same. Bush thought the steel industry would boom with new investment with tariffs... net result 200,000 jobs lost. Obama thought America would lead the way in renewable energy if only the were subsidized... net result...

& Yes and Yes.

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

cause you don't know either and you keep saying tariffs are bad for solar panel and the solar panel instillation employment.

Did you read the article I linked? People in the industry say that the tariffs are bad for them and kill jobs. The tariffs increase the price of solar, and therefore the demand goes down, and there are fewer and fewer installers required.

yea and long term if we manufactured more of our own solar panels or manufactured more of the products they are made from wouldnt that increase jobs?

No.

With 30% tariffs on imported panels, US manufacturers might be able to compete at the higher prices. But the higher prices that allow Americans to compete still means lower demand, and fewer jobs for installers. So a few hundred jobs are created in highly automated plants, but thousands of jobs still go away for installers.

But no American company is going to build a factory to make solar panels, because the tariffs gradually decline over 4 years and then expire. So by the time they got the factory up and running, they would once again be facing competition from cheap imports.

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

I'm fine with paying a little more for American made stuff. American made though is a feature not the rest of the world cares about. So when I'm staring at rolled Chinese steel vs. American steel I may pay the 5% more for it. The problem is the rest of the world won't so I'm going to create steel mills and plants and train workers for a product I can sell in only one place...? What do I do if I ever have a surplus? I'm screwed...

He will but its the same problem as its short sighted. Governments come and go but the laws of economics remain the same. Bush thought the steel industry would boom with new investment with tariffs... net result 200,000 jobs lost. Obama thought America would lead the way in renewable energy if only the were subsidized... net result...

& Yes and Yes.

America first the rest of the world last.





not President Trumps economics. Obama lied (proven not opinionated) to America and the American citizens and obama thought yea that was the problem he though unlike President Trump who knows.

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Clocker

Did you read the article I linked? People in the industry say that the tariffs are bad for them and kill jobs. The tariffs increase the price of solar, and therefore the demand goes down, and there are fewer and fewer installers required.

No.

With 30% tariffs on imported panels, US manufacturers might be able to compete at the higher prices. But the higher prices that allow Americans to compete still means lower demand, and fewer jobs for installers. So a few hundred jobs are created in highly automated plants, but thousands of jobs still go away for installers.

But no American company is going to build a factory to make solar panels, because the tariffs gradually decline over 4 years and then expire. So by the time they got the factory up and running, they would once again be facing competition from cheap imports.

would wager President Trump has a difference of opinion then you. I didnt know solar panel installation created the majority of the American workforce.


my opinion only, The only reason an American company would build a factory (wouldnt take much) to manufacture solar panels is if tariffs forced other countries to pay more to sell their cheap imports here USA in the first place wich is what they need to do if we put America first

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

not President Trumps economics.

So Trump has repealed the laws of economics?

In the past, if the price of something went up, consumers bought less of it.

But now under Trump, if tariffs make the price of solar panels or steel or lumber go up, people will buy more? Will they do that because of loyalty to Trump and America, because at the higher prices, American companies can now afford to sell in the market?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

would wager President Trump has a difference of opinion then you. I didnt know solar panel installation created the majority of the American workforce.

I bet Trump didn't know that either.

my opinion only, The only reason an American company would build a factory (wouldnt take much) to manufacture solar panels is if tariffs forced other countries to pay more to sell their cheap imports here USA in the first place wich is what they need to do if we put America first

It wouldn't take much to build an automated solar panel factory?

At the risk of repeating myself, those tariffs will decline and finally expire in 4 years. If you can't compete in the market now, why would you build a factory, at great time and expense, knowing that the market you can't compete in now will be the market you will face in four years?

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

America first the rest of the world last.

not President Trumps economics. Obama lied (proven not opinionated) to America and the American citizens and obama thought yea that was the problem he though unlike President Trump who knows.

So the rest of the world gets lumber, steel, ties, shirts, aluminum etc. cheaper but we have to pay more for it "cuz 'murica!"?

You are also ignoring the fact those goods we make here we can't sell anywhere else...





Honestly man you really should pick up some simple economics 101 stuff. Especially anything relating to applied economics. Not a political piece... just a textbook on applied economics. At that point we could agree to disagree but at the very least you could make your own decisions instead of having to trust politicians to lead you in the right direction...

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by Clocker

I bet Trump didn't know that either.

It wouldn't take much to build an automated solar panel factory?


It wouldnt take much $ to build any solar panel production facility and wouldn't take long to reap a profit if those tariffs are imposed correctly.



At the risk of repeating myself, those tariffs will decline and finally expire in 4 years. If you can't compete in the market now, why would you build a factory, at great time and expense, knowing that the market you can't compete in now will be the market you will face in four years?

Thats your opinion and again Ill take President Trumps word for it. Also the part of exemptions is all part of the plan to make America great again.

[mrhorseplayer]

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller

So the rest of the world gets lumber, steel, ties, shirts, aluminum etc. cheaper but we have to pay more for it "cuz 'murica!"?

You are also ignoring the fact those goods we make here we can't sell anywhere else...





Honestly man you really should pick up some simple economics 101 stuff. Especially anything relating to applied economics. Not a political piece... just a textbook on applied economics. At that point we could agree to disagree but at the very least you could make your own decisions instead of having to trust politicians to lead you in the right direction...

Honestly you shouldnt be so anti american.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

Honestly you shouldnt be so anti american.

How is wanting the American investor/worker wanting to focus on being as profitable and successful as possible being anti-American?

How is wanting the freedom to choose the best products and prices for my situation anti-American?

How is wanting the government to stay the hell out of the economy anti-American?

How is saying "no thanks, I'll handle this on my own" to big brother anti-American?

[Clocker]

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer

Thats your opinion and again Ill take President Trumps word for it. Also the part of exemptions is all part of the plan to make America great again.

It's just my opinion that the tariffs will expire in four years? No, that is what was announced by the administration.

What exemptions? Trump has exempted Canada, Mexico, and the EU from the steel tariffs. How is that going to make America great again?

I'll join with ET in saying that it is clear that you do not understand the tariffs or their impact on the US economy. You don't even seem to really know what Trump's positions or goals are.

[elysiantraveller]

Originally Posted by Clocker

It's just my opinion that the tariffs will expire in four years? No, that is what was announced by the administration.

What exemptions? Trump has exempted Canada, Mexico, and the EU from the steel tariffs. How is that going to make America great again?

I'll join with ET in saying that it is clear that you do not understand the tariffs or their impact on the US economy. You don't even seem to really know what Trump's positions or goals are.

In other news... Airbus got slammed by the WTO today for loans by European countries.

Paving the way for.... lots and lots of tariffs!

Or... probably just more talk since Boeing is up next on their chopping block.