Brisnet -- DRF Speed Rate + Variant

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

I didn't call him out for retiring.

It was awful he had a heart attack, but, it didn't stop him from working afterwards or flying to Miami for his award.

I called him out for leaving and not contributing anymore.

Or was it just a job that he made a living at - all along and now he's "retired"?

Screw the current horseplayer and the game he lived off of. Is that what he's doing in effect by his silence?

So let me get this straight. You're pissed because after giving 35 years of his life to the game and to horseplayers, you're pissed he doesn't keep going non-stop until he finally drops dead?

Makes sense...but to only you.

[Denny]

Why shouldn't he contribute?

Is it the game that is "killing him"?

Then again, maybe he's just sick of what it is and wants nothing to do with it.

Can't blame him for that.

[Denny]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

BTW, don't forget to post about all the emails and PMs you've received warning you not to go against Serling, NYRA, or any of the "NY Crew," or you'll get banned by me.

I always enjoy it when someone drags out that tired old meme.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Is this directed at me or anyone in particular?

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Is this directed at me or anyone in particular?

Never mind. The people who usually claim to get all these advisory PMs are full of crap anyway.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Denny

Why shouldn't he contribute?

Is it the game that is "killing him"?

Then again, maybe he's just sick of what it is and wants nothing to do with it.

Can't blame him for that.

Maybe he read some of your posts.

[Denny]

Originally Posted by Tom

Maybe he read some of your posts.

Why would he care what I have to say?

Why is anybody here concerned either? You included chimp.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by Denny

Why would he care what I have to say?

Why is anybody here concerned either?

There's a difference between being concerned and responding with feedback. I'm not concerned at all.

[Denny]

On the original issue of Speed Figures and Past Performances.

Wasn't the game, for those who have been around it for a long time, much more enjoyable before everybody had speed figures?

Wasn't it also more enjoyable before trainer statistics were everywhere fo everybody to see? Including the owners and trainers themselves.

Aren't both of these things are big reason why trainers run their horses so infrequently. They bought into bounce theories and are so concerned with their win percentage performance?

Loved the sport so much more before.

Now we get shorter prices than ever - and see horses run less often than ever before

Thank you for spoiling the fun for the average player and fan you guys!!!

Yes, I include SC and AB in the "you" at fault.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Denny

On the original issue of Speed Figures and Past Performances.

Wasn't the game, for those who have been around it for a long time, much more enjoyable before everybody had speed figures?

Wasn't it also more enjoyable before trainer statistics were everywhere fo everybody to see? Including the owners and trainers themselves.

Aren't both of these things are big reason why trainers run their horses so infrequently. They bought into bounce theories and are so concerned with their win percentage performance?

Loved the sport so much more before.

Now we get shorter prices than ever - and see horses run less often than ever before

Thank you for spoiling the fun for the average player and fan you guys!!!

Yes, I include SC and AB in the "you" at fault.

The game was more enjoyable before, there is no doubt about that...but the speed figures and the trainer stats aren't to blame for the game's decline. This being the "information age", this statistical "evolution" was to be expected as a natural progression of the game...and it needn't necessarily be a bad thing.

The game suffers today because it's alienated itself from the vast majority of its customers. When an industry treats its customers with contempt in a competitive marketplace...then it doesn't take a genius to predict what its future will be.

[Denny]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The game was more enjoyable before, there is no doubt about that...but the speed figures and the trainer stats aren't to blame for the game's decline. This being the "information age", this statistical "evolution" was to be expected as a natural progression of the game...and it needn't necessarily be a bad thing.

The game suffers today because it's alienated itself from the vast majority of its customers. When an industry treats its customers with contempt in a competitive marketplace...then it doesn't take a genius to predict what its future will be.

I hear you, but, not sure that's anything new.
NYRA was treating customers that way in the 70's (when i started attending).
Only the upper class got any attention or respect.
They always treated regular customers like crap.

The stats being everywhere and the speed figs everywhere is a newer phenomenon. Trainers like Pletcher and Brown are so concerned with their win percentage. Didn't used to be that way.
Do you think Woody ever cared about his percentage?

Trainers ran their horses twice as often as today.
They modern horsemen put more importance into a horse's "sheet" than how the horse is actually doing.

People who made their own figs enjoyed an advantage and they deserved too with all the work that was required.
Now EVERYBODY has reasonably good figs and PRICE has suffered.

It just isn't much fun for the player as it used to be when the FORM contained basic FACTUAL information (not subjective figs) and tons of trainer stats - and that isn't the track's fault.

[steveb]

Originally Posted by Denny

BTW, Beyer's Par times are atrocious. Mine were far better.

the actual times mean diddly squat, but being an expert you already knew that didn't you?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Denny

I hear you, but, not sure that's anything new.
NYRA was treating customers that way in the 70's (when i started attending).
Only the upper class got any attention or respect.
They always treated regular customers like crap.

The stats being everywhere and the speed figs everywhere is a newer phenomenon. Trainers like Pletcher and Brown are so concerned with their win percentage. Didn't used to be that way.
Do you think Woody ever cared about his percentage?

Trainers ran their horses twice as often as today.
They modern horsemen put more importance into a horse's "sheet" than how the horse is actually doing.

People who made their own figs enjoyed an advantage and they deserved too with all the work that was required.
Now EVERYBODY has reasonably good figs and PRICE has suffered.

It just isn't much fun for the player as it used to be when the FORM contained basic FACTUAL information (not subjective figs) and tons of trainer stats - and that isn't the track's fault.

Yes...the tracks treated the customers like crap in the 70s too. But there were no other gambling options for the customer back then...and the tracks were able to get away with treating their customers disrespectfully. That sort of attitude doesn't fly today...because now there is stiff competition for the gambler's dollar.

As far as the speed figures are concerned, you can't expect pertinent information to remain secret too long in the gambling business. What happened in horse racing has happened in sports betting, poker, blackjack, etc. In every "beatable" form of gambling, people research things and eventually report their findings to the rest of the gamblers...and the games get tougher as a result. That's why we say that a winning gambler can't rest on his laurels while admiring his "gambling skill". He better keep working to maintain his edge over the crowd...because the "crowd" gets smarter and smarter as the time passes.

IMO...the horses are running less than they used to because the game is currently run with only the horsemen in mind. The horsemen have figured out that they have a better chance of collecting a sizable check in a 6-horse field than in a 12-horse field...so, the 6-horse fields proliferate everywhere. Even when 8 horses are entered to appease the racing secretary, there are the obligatory 2 late scratches...and the field is reduced to 6 again. The purses are high, and the tracks keep collecting their casino profits, so...who cares if the horseplayers get stuck with short, uncompetitive fields, and puny payoffs? The speed figures and the trainer stats have nothing to do with the size of the fields that we see.

[Denny]

Thaskalos,

You don't think trainers ascribe to the "bounce"?
Horse runs a big fig = trainer gives him two months off to "recover".

Trainer wants a flashy win percentage next to his name to attract owners.
Only runs his horses accordingly?

Agree with most of the other stuff you said.

As an aside. Day rates isn't part of the conversation, but, would trainers run more often if they only made money from purse winnings?
Instead they sucker owners with expensive day rates and all the owner gets to see for his money is workouts!
The horsemen have a nice thing going. Why interrupt it with running in a race?

The casino dole. That's another issue. Did you see the articles in the Philly and Pitts newspapers?
The state gives more money to the horse breeders than it spends on numerous government programs. Almost as much as on the entire state police!

Somebody's gonna notice and shut that casino dole spigot.

[Frankie D]

I have been using the Brisnet "ultimate PP"'s that you can download from twinspires free if making a bet.

Could someone enlighten me as to what are the speed numbers on these both before and after the March 18 date?

Details if possible. What are those numbers for the given date breakdown? In particular I want the numbers being used there after March 18....

[Tom]

What is special about March 18?
I'm not aware of any change to the numbers.

Do you have any PPs for today?