Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Gee, not only do you understand god's mind, you also got Einstein's down too.

What part of Einstein's mind didn't you get in his quote? If he thought the universe was beyond our understanding, then how much less of its Creator's mind can we understand? And we would not be able to understand anything of our Creator if he hadn't revealed his mind to us in the scriptures.

Moreover, if God exists and he has not revealed himself to mankind, then all God talk is meaningless, since we would be merely engaging in idle conjecture about what is unknown and always unknowable. We would be like the Greeks in Athens during Paul's day who erected an idol "TO AN UNKNOWN GOD" (Act 17:23) -- the only difference is that we would do this in our own mind.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

If you insist on quoting Christian versions of the bible, let me get you back to it's Jewish origins. Our understanding has limits.



Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 8

17. And I saw all the deed of God, for a person will not be able to fathom the deed that is done under the sun, because though a man toils to seek, he will not fathom [it], and even if the wise man claims to know [it], he will be unable to fathom [it].

..... זוְרָאִ֘יתִ֘י אֶת־כָּל־מַֽעֲשֵׂ֣ה הָֽאֱלֹהִים֒ כִּי֩ לֹ֨א יוּכַ֜ל
הָֽאָדָ֗ם לִמְצוֹא֙ אֶת־הַֽמַּֽעֲשֶׂה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר נַֽעֲשָׂ֣ה תַֽחַת־הַשֶּׁ֔מֶשׁ בְּ֠שֶׁ֠ל אֲשֶׁ֨ר יַֽעֲמֹ֧ל הָֽאָדָ֛ם לְבַקֵּ֖שׁ וְלֹ֣א יִמְצָ֑א וְגַ֨ם ]אִם־יֹאמַ֤ר הֶֽחָכָם֙ לָדַ֔עַת לֹ֥א יוּכַ֖ל לִמְצֹֽא

Yes, so...what is it specifically that man will not be able to fatom?

And how does your "Jewish" text differ significantly from this translation:

Eccl 8:17
17 and I saw every work of God, I concluded that man cannot discover the work which has been done under the sun. Even though man should seek laboriously, he will not discover; and though the wise man should say, "I know," he cannot discover ?
NASB

Seems to me that Einstein was on the same page as Solomon.

[hcap]

What part of thinking and reading clearly don't you understand? I clearly stated

Einstein stated that he believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch Spinoza.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...noza's_God

"Einstein had explored the idea that humans could not understand the nature of God. In an interview published in George Sylvester Viereck's book Glimpses of the Great (1930), Einstein responded to a question about whether or not he defined himself as a pantheist. He explained:

[hcap]

Yes, so...what is it specifically that man will not be able to fatom?

Re read what I called Einstein's "spiritual" parable I posted in #5988

[hcap]

Edit....

Originally Posted by hcap

What part of thinking and reading clearly and having a consternation without demeaning and insulting others don't you understand?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Re read what I called Einstein's "spiritual" parable I posted in #5988

Einstein said that no matter how well trained a mind is, it could not understand the universe. And this is actually a biblical sentiment.

But Einstein also said that the nature of God could not be understood. And he didn't qualify that statement. The problem with this sentiment is that it is at odds with scripture. The whole point to divine revelation was for God to reveal himself to man who is created in his likeness and image. Of course, this doesn't mean that anyone (at least in this age) can exhaustively know God. But nonetheless true knowledge of God is possible because it is God himself who opens up a person's mind or heart to understand his revelation. Remember: Limited Agnosticism is a biblical doctrine.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Einstein said that no matter how well trained a mind is, it could not understand the universe. And this is actually a biblical sentiment.

Is Pantheism one too? Einstein did NOT believe in personal god. Is no personal god also a biblical sentiment as well? Please do not attribute "biblical revealing", and chapter and verses to Einstein.

Einstein expressed only a bare minimum of biblical sentiment.

[hcap]

The only way Einstein's beliefs approached Jude-Christian thinking, is in the metaphorical, mystical interpretation you hate.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Is Pantheism one too? Einstein did NOT believe in personal god. Is no personal god also a biblical sentiment as well? Please do not attribute "biblical revealing", and chapter and verses to Einstein.

Einstein expressed only a bare minimum of biblical sentiment.

Man...LEARN TO READ, ALREADY! Einstein was a pantheist because he believed NOTHING could really be known about the nature of God, which is NOT a biblical sentiment! Got it it now! (All I did was explain why that wasn't a biblical notion. I didn't attribute anything to Einstein.)

He also believed that no matter how well we train our minds that the universe could not be understood by finite minds either! This in fact is taught in the bible -- that God's ways are past finding out.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

The only way Einstein's beliefs approached Jude-Christian thinking, is in the metaphorical, mystical interpretation you hate.

Where did I ever say that Einstein's beliefs approached Judeo-Christian thinking? Pantheism is far, far removed this.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Man...LEARN TO READ, ALREADY! Einstein was a pantheist because he believed NOTHING could really be known about the nature of God, which is NOT a biblical sentiment! Got it it now! (All I did was explain why that wasn't a biblical notion. I didn't attribute anything to Einstein.)
.

You learn yo think already Shirley.! What part of Pantheism don'/t you get? Your conclusion about why Eisenstein accepted Pantheism is faulty. Skewed logic.

Pantheism believes among other things, the universe is god, therefore Einstein did believe he knew something something about god and your usual black, white, dualistic statement is wrong.

Jude-Christian dualism believes that God and creation are distinct. However, Spinoza believed that everything that exists is God. Einstein favored Spinoza

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Where did I ever say that Einstein's beliefs approached Judeo-Christian thinking? Pantheism is far, far removed this.

You went on and on ascribing "biblical sentiments" to Einstein.
You have always held the OT and NT were absolutely true

1.Judeo +
2.Christian.=

Judeo-Christian

[hcap]

Einstein, a professed pantheist, wrote that he experienced a “cosmic religious feeling,” a persistent awe at the “sublimity and marvelous order” of the universe.
...............................................
Some of us feel this too.

Is the atheist or agnostic who experiences the “sublimity and marvelous order” of the universe undergoing any less of a "religious" experience?.

Depends on how much the anthropomorphic traditional biased beliefs are considered the only religion that can be.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You learn yo think already Shirley.! What part of Pantheism don'/t you get? Your conclusion about why Eisenstein accepted Pantheism is faulty. Skewed logic.

Not at all. I think it's a logical inference. Einstein, unlike the militant, outspoken, arrogant anti-God scientists of today, was a humble guy. As brilliant as he was he understood that he would never fathom the depths to the origin of the universe. And I believe this left him with a sense that there must be something more to this awesome physical universe that just raw atheistic materialism or naturalism. But he also, mistakenly, believed that God could not be known, so he made his god to be an impersonal and very likely amoral god. Ergo, he chose pantheism for his personal worldview.

Pantheism believes among other things, the universe is god, therefore Einstein did believe he knew something something about god and your usual black, white, dualistic statement is wrong.

Man, are you DENSE! God back and read your own quote about him again. You are thicker than the walls to Fort Knox! Einstein clearly said that nothing could be known about God's nature. So...if you don't know anything about the nature (or essence) of a thing or a being, then just what can you really know -- how deep can anyone's knowledge be? Deep as raindrop resting on a leaf, perhaps?

All Einstein did, from his observance and what limited knowledge he had of the universe, is infer from this that there must be something more to the universe than what can be observed or understood by finite minds. So...his god was the universe!

Rom 1:25a
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...
NIV

The lie that Einstein believed (and actually there were many of them!) -- but the primary one was that he believed that we can't really know God because we can't understand his nature. Since God was in all created things in the universe, Einstein worshiped the universe. The universe was his god.

Jude-Christian dualism believes that God and creation are distinct. However, Spinoza believed that everything that exists is God. Einstein favored Spinoza

And true born again Christians don't subscribe to Dualism Just for your info... Dualism is not taught in the bible.

[hcap]

I am getting very tired explaining the obvious to you. You just play word games, and miss the key points in most discussions.

Actor should be back. I will watch for a while.