Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

You better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
I'm telling you why
Boxcar the Grinch is coming to town

Kool. Make sure you get the word out.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Go back and read the James passage again. What part of that passage, don't you get? Eve was tempted by HER OWN LUST. Since the devil didn't tempt Eve, then how could a third party have tempted her!?

You are ducking your precious statements.

Your post##3569

Originally Posted by boxcar

Because the serpent is part of creation and God cursed all creation. Apparently, you didn't read my 3477 either?

Now you mindlessly attempt to use more biblical passages to deflect from your contradiction.

MAYBE YOUR NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

My contention is "if god made the devil, he made evil, and therefore god tempted A&E through the form of the serpent, which you have already stated the Devil took over.

You evidently lose track of your convoluted theocracy.


'Of what tangled webs we weave, when we prctice blindly to believe"

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are ducking your precious statements.

Your post##3569
Now you mindlessly attempt to use more biblical passages to deflect from your contradiction.

MAYBE YOUR NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

My contention is "if god made the devil, he made evil, and therefore god tempted A&E through the form of the serpent, which you have already stated the Devil took over.

You evidently lose track of your convoluted theocracy.


'Of what tangled webs we weave, when we prctice blindly to believe"

Your contention is neither biblical or logical. For one thing evil is not a thing that anyone can make, including God.. Evil is the absence of good.. (Just like darkness is not a thing; for darkness is the absence of light. Darkness would never exist if it weren't for light.)) Since Good exists, then the antitheseis of Good must exist whenever Good ceases to exist!

There is no contradiction in my theology or in the bible. The bible is very consistent with itself. The "serpent" in the Garden did NOT tempt Eve. Eve's own lustful desires tempted her when she succumbed to those desires. I supported this with the passages in James 1 and in Ezekiel 28, this latter chapter teaching that no one tempted Lucifer when he sinned. Lucifer, like Eve, tempted himself by his own lustful desires.

Got it now?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Your contention is neither biblical or logical. For one thing evil is not a thing that anyone can make, including God.. Evil is the absence of good..

So then you take this back or deny you said it

Originally Posted by boxcar

Because the serpent is part of creation and God cursed all creation......

1-God created and cursed all of creation
2-God created the serpent
3-The serpent was "evil", or wore a spiritual blindfold,
and convinced the first couple to wear theirs?

4-God blinded them since he created the snake
5-GOD CREATED THEIE PROPENSITY TO BE TEMPTED

[HalvOnHorseracing]

Originally Posted by hcap

You are ducking your precious statements.

Your post##3569
Now you mindlessly attempt to use more biblical passages to deflect from your contradiction.

MAYBE YOUR NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

My contention is "if god made the devil, he made evil, and therefore god tempted A&E through the form of the serpent, which you have already stated the Devil took over.

You evidently lose track of your convoluted theocracy.


'Of what tangled webs we weave, when we prctice blindly to believe"

If I remember my Catholic school lectures, God created the angels before he created the physical universe.

The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world: "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7).

The story of Lucifer involves a powerful archangel who wanted ultimate power for himself, rebelled against God, and therefore fell from heaven. Here is where it gets confusing. Some believe that Lucifer is the devil. Others believe Lucifer and the devil are two different entities. I believe I was taught that Lucifer was another name for Satan or the devil - all the same being.

Sounds like God created Lucifer who became Satan after his rebellion against God. Evil would have been created indirectly by God, and according to the Bible existed before the earth was created.

This all would have made a great graphic novel.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

So then you take this back or deny you said it

1-God created and cursed all of creation
2-God created the serpent
3-The serpent was "evil", or wore a spiritual blindfold,
and convinced the first couple to wear theirs?

4-God blinded them since he created the snake
5-GOD CREATED THEIE PROPENSITY TO BE TEMPTED

I don't have to take it back or deny it. God created all his "imagers" (angels and humans) with free will, giving them the potential to distrust/disobey Him. He didn't create robots. Nor did he choose to coerce/force his rational, moral creation to obey him. He gave them a free choice. And without free choice, there is no fair test!

What you also conveniently overlook is that the vast majority of angelic beings freely chose to to obey God. Only about a third of the angles rebelled with Lucifer.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

If I remember my Catholic school lectures, God created the angels before he created the physical universe.

The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world: "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7).

The story of Lucifer involves a powerful archangel who wanted ultimate power for himself, rebelled against God, and therefore fell from heaven. Here is where it gets confusing. Some believe that Lucifer is the devil. Others believe Lucifer and the devil are two different entities. I believe I was taught that Lucifer was another name for Satan or the devil - all the same being.

Sounds like God created Lucifer who became Satan after his rebellion against God. Evil would have been created indirectly by God, and according to the Bible existed before the earth was created.

This all would have made a great graphic novel.

Revelations 20 adds another wrinkle...

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

A giant Rorschach test. One can read almost anything into the Christian version of the devil and it's relationship to god.

As a Jew, at least there is a simpler concept. In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary”. There are further convoluted interpretations, as well as in Christianity, but not so much.

Major problem for both is taking any of this literally.
That's when things turn in on themselves.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Revelations 20 adds another wrinkle...

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

A giant Rorschach test. One can read almost anything into the Christian version of the devil and it's relationship to god.

As a Jew, at least there is a simpler concept. In Hebrew, the term Satan is usually translated as “opponent” or “adversary”. There are further convoluted interpretations, as well as in Christianity, but not so much.

Major problem for both is taking any of this literally.
That's when things turn in on themselves.

The only wrinkle is your aging gray matter between your ears. But since you're searching for "wrinkles", I'll give you one. You can thank me later.

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
NASB

Hmmm....but I thought he is locked away in "prison"?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And you know that how...by Pacino's movie?

By pure logic. In preparing for battle every general uses propaganda. He wants to inspire his own troops by telling them that victory is assured. He wants to demoralize the enemy troops by telling them the same thing. But the outcome is never certain until the battle is over.

So, consider the source.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You are delusional. And besides, the devil has already been defeated since Christ overcame death. It's all over save for the final curtain.

You cannot even prove that Christ existed. Even if he did you cannot prove he overcame death. It's all fiction, including the devil.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The bible is very consistent with itself.

No, it is not. Your arguments to the contrary are totally unconvincing.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

He didn't create robots.

Humans are robots.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The only wrinkle is your aging gray matter between your ears. But since you're searching for "wrinkles", I'll give you one. You can thank me later.

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
NASB

Hmmm....but I thought he is locked away in "prison"?

I did not quote revelations to explain your biblical mess. But rather to illustrate the mess.

Maybe I will thank you later. It's not often I get to speak to Gog and your cousin Magog.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

If I remember my Catholic school lectures, God created the angels before he created the physical universe.

The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world: "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-7).

The story of Lucifer involves a powerful archangel who wanted ultimate power for himself, rebelled against God, and therefore fell from heaven. Here is where it gets confusing. Some believe that Lucifer is the devil. Others believe Lucifer and the devil are two different entities. I believe I was taught that Lucifer was another name for Satan or the devil - all the same being.

Sounds like God created Lucifer who became Satan after his rebellion against God. Evil would have been created indirectly by God, and according to the Bible existed before the earth was created.

This all would have made a great graphic novel.

Maybe after my study, I'll write a movie script.

But seriously... there is another very interesting rendering in several translations of the Job passage you quoted. The NASB, for example, reads:

Job 38:4-7
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements, since you know?
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 "On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
NASB

"Sons of God" is a phrase found in several places in the OT. See for example, early on in Job (1:6; 2:1), etc.

Just as God has his earthly administration (namely, his saints here on earth), He also has his heavenly administration consisting of "divine" beings (angels). (By "divine", I'm NOT suggesting angels are co-equal with God or that they possess His attributes. They are "sons of God" by virtue of their creation by Him and their close proximity to him -- their access to Him.)

Also, as created entities, they cannot possibly be on the same footing as Yahweh, since He is eternal -- his very essence being pure existence. Anyhow, this divine administration consists of good and fallen angels -- all of whom God uses to accomplish his perfect will.

One of the most fascinating passages in all scripture that deals with this divine administration is Psalm 82. The opening verse in the NIV reads:

Ps 82:1
2 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":
NIV

Of course, the quotation marks were added by the translators in an attempt to make the passage clearer.

The ESV reads:

Ps 82:1
82 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
ESV

The well-intentioned NAS translators really missed the thrust of the passage with this "politically-correct" rendering:

Ps 82:1
2 God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
NASB

The translators botched this verse so badly, that the reader has no clue at all that the psalmist is talking about a heavenly council.

This is why it's so important to consult various translations if one isn't conversant in the original language.

The English translation of the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT) reads this way:

Ps 82:1
1 God stood in a gathering of gods,
but in their midst he discerningly judges gods
NETS

Anyhow...what is really going on in this passage is that God is presiding over his divine council of "gods" (angels) and he's judging them for ruling wickedly over the nations. So, what we're getting a glimpse of is the wicked side of God's divine administration (fallen angels) intersecting with his human administration (human governments). (And, yes, there is a righteous side to this divine administration, as well, but that's for another discussion. All this gives new meaning to the portion of the Lord's prayer that goes, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

There are indeed profound theological implications to all this, not to mention how we can now understand certain passages, especially since we know that the angels were created at minimum before the completion of the earth. Since as you have said (and I believe correctly) that the angels witnessed God's creation, the "Us" and "Our" terms in Gen 1:26 could actually be referring to this divine council, especially since angels are also created in Yahweh's image - in that they are personal, moral, rational beings.

Lucifer was the devil's name before he sinned. The term means "shining one" or "light-bearer". The Ezekiel 28 passage I quoted yesterday, brings this idea out brilliantly (no pun intended). Apparently, the devil still has the power to deceive by appearing as an angel of light (2Cor 11:14).

The term "satan" in the Hebrew is not a personal noun. The proper rendering should be "the satan" (the adversary).

The devil and the satan are certainly one and the same (Rev 12:9; 20:2).

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

You cannot even prove that Christ existed. Even if he did you cannot prove he overcame death. It's all fiction, including the devil.

Whatever you say, Dumpty.