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Old 10-19-2022, 12:45 AM   #1591
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Nope.

Was always pretty obvious to me.
Oh, I'm sure it was.

Almost a whole 8 months it took...quite a conundrum I'm betting
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Old 10-19-2022, 01:14 AM   #1592
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Oh, I'm sure it was.

Almost a whole 8 months it took...quite a conundrum I'm betting
No conundrum. It all makes sense to me.

If this is your attempt at trying to be clever it's not landing.
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Old 10-19-2022, 12:58 PM   #1593
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This conversation is still going on?

We live in a corrupt country, with a corrupt media, that is constantly lying to us on foreign policy. At this point, much of our media is full of ex CIA spooks promoting an agenda.

The agenda is very simple. I keep explaining it.

1. Some people within the US (primarily sociopathic neocons with very significant influence) consider Putin a military and political adversary they could never work with. Their long term goal is to remove him from power PERIOD.

(The neocon's goal is essentially to remove everyone from power that doesn't get in line. They've killed millions of people and spent trillions of dollars doing that already in the middle east).

2. Trump considers China to be the long term economic and military threat and wants to improve relations with Putin/Russia, improve business ties and keep Russia closer to the US than China.

Trump's view is why the neocons left the republican party, aligned with democrats, and are constantly attacking Trump with all this phony Russia nonsense. He wants peace and an alignment with Russia against China. They want to remove Putin.

IMO, Trump is so obviously right, it shouldn't even be a conversation.

Putin is a corrupt SOB, but his perspective on all this is simple.

He wants to do business in Europe and around the world, wants to have influence in key energy regions of the world, wants to keep power in Russia, wants to keep enriching himself and his cronies, and wants a cushion between his borders and NATO in key regions of vulnerability given that he knows the US/NATO want him out of power. He's seen what happened to enemies of the neocons in the middle east. They are mostly dead.

He has neither the economic power or military strength to be a major threat to the world unless we provoke him into lobbing nukes somewhere. His GDP is LESS than a single US state like California, let alone the entire US, NATO, and other allies. It's a joke. He can't even beat a backward wildly corrupt country like Ukraine.

What we have to do is grow up and realize we live in a dangerous world where not everyone is or wants to be a democracy with some US puppet leader like Zelenskyy in charge. We have to stop interfering in the internal politics of other countries and overthrowing regimes we don't like.

We have to find ways to work with them that takes into account their security concerns, their economic issues, their different values and not fight direct and surrogate wars with everyone the neocons don't like.

This war, all the death, all the destruction, all the lost resources, all the shortages and hardships could be stopped very easily by simply admitting that Ukraine cannot be part of NATO with troops and missiles aimed at Moscow and Putin's backyard.

Ukraine must be neutral but guaranteed protection.

The Russian speaking areas that actually want to be part of Russia should be allowed to break away and any other land Russia has now
should behanded back to Ukraine.

That would do it and anyone that tells you otherwise is a liar whose goal is to overthrow Putin and not to find a reasonable and sustainable peace settlement.
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Old 10-19-2022, 04:33 PM   #1594
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Old 10-19-2022, 05:32 PM   #1595
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Originally Posted by classhandicapper View Post
This conversation is still going on?

We live in a corrupt country, with a corrupt media, that is constantly lying to us on foreign policy. At this point, much of our media is full of ex CIA spooks promoting an agenda.

The agenda is very simple. I keep explaining it.

1. Some people within the US (primarily sociopathic neocons with very significant influence) consider Putin a military and political adversary they could never work with. Their long term goal is to remove him from power PERIOD.

(The neocon's goal is essentially to remove everyone from power that doesn't get in line. They've killed millions of people and spent trillions of dollars doing that already in the middle east).

2. Trump considers China to be the long term economic and military threat and wants to improve relations with Putin/Russia, improve business ties and keep Russia closer to the US than China.

Trump's view is why the neocons left the republican party, aligned with democrats, and are constantly attacking Trump with all this phony Russia nonsense. He wants peace and an alignment with Russia against China. They want to remove Putin.

IMO, Trump is so obviously right, it shouldn't even be a conversation.

Putin is a corrupt SOB, but his perspective on all this is simple.

He wants to do business in Europe and around the world, wants to have influence in key energy regions of the world, wants to keep power in Russia, wants to keep enriching himself and his cronies, and wants a cushion between his borders and NATO in key regions of vulnerability given that he knows the US/NATO want him out of power. He's seen what happened to enemies of the neocons in the middle east. They are mostly dead.

He has neither the economic power or military strength to be a major threat to the world unless we provoke him into lobbing nukes somewhere. His GDP is LESS than a single US state like California, let alone the entire US, NATO, and other allies. It's a joke. He can't even beat a backward wildly corrupt country like Ukraine.

What we have to do is grow up and realize we live in a dangerous world where not everyone is or wants to be a democracy with some US puppet leader like Zelenskyy in charge. We have to stop interfering in the internal politics of other countries and overthrowing regimes we don't like.

We have to find ways to work with them that takes into account their security concerns, their economic issues, their different values and not fight direct and surrogate wars with everyone the neocons don't like.

This war, all the death, all the destruction, all the lost resources, all the shortages and hardships could be stopped very easily by simply admitting that Ukraine cannot be part of NATO with troops and missiles aimed at Moscow and Putin's backyard.

Ukraine must be neutral but guaranteed protection.

The Russian speaking areas that actually want to be part of Russia should be allowed to break away and any other land Russia has now
should behanded back to Ukraine.

That would do it and anyone that tells you otherwise is a liar whose goal is to overthrow Putin and not to find a reasonable and sustainable peace settlement.
AND, as "corrupt" as we are we DO NOT hold a candle to Russia, so there's always that, that should be factored into any response you give here.
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Old 10-19-2022, 05:37 PM   #1596
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AND, as "corrupt" as we are we DO NOT hold a candle to Russia, so there's always that, that should be factored into any response you give here.
Using what metrics?

Serious question.

Different kinds of corruption still equals corruption.
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Old 10-19-2022, 05:41 PM   #1597
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Using what metrics?

Serious question.

Different kinds of corruption still equals corruption.
You name it, Russia takes the cake, you could practically say corruption was invented there, don't believe me, ask my wife or my mother in law, both dual citizens.
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Old 10-19-2022, 05:43 PM   #1598
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You name it, Russia takes the cake, you could practically say corruption was invented there, don't believe me, ask my wife or my mother in law, both dual citizens.
You've been well shielded from the corruption that's been eating away at this country for DECADES...so it's understandable you should think like this.
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Old 10-19-2022, 05:55 PM   #1599
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You've been well shielded from the corruption that's been eating away at this country for DECADES...so it's understandable you should think like this.
No, I see the corruption for what it is, its something that all politicians do, including the Clintons and the Obamas and the Bidens and the Bushes and the Trumps and the Reagans. And it doesnt stop there, it permeates every level of our government. Most of us are too busy trying to blame the other party to see the forest for the trees, which is why I dont comment here too often.
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Old 10-19-2022, 06:05 PM   #1600
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AND, as "corrupt" as we are we DO NOT hold a candle to Russia, so there's always that, that should be factored into any response you give here.
The fact that Russia is more corrupt than the US (or at least was until recently) is not a reason for all this death and destruction, wasting of 100s of billions of dollars when we have huge deficits and important other needs for the money, the shortages of energy and food etc..

Whatever Russia is, China is at least 10x more dangerous to the world long term.

After Putin dies (either by natural causes or getting overthrown and killed like the other leaders the sociopaths in our government didn't like), they'll probably go after China next, but that one is not going to end well for us.

We could easily work with Putin/Russia, have a positive influence, and slowly bring Russia into the western fold over 15-25 years as an offset to China. Putin will eventually die and hopefully we'll get a better leader to replace him. Instead, we are driving Russia, China, India and other countries into each other's arms and further away from us while creating all this havoc and risk.

I know all the things Trump is that so many people hate about him. But imo he's right on policy more often than not. IMO he's clearly right on Russia and China. That why the neocons/IC hate him so much and use the media to endlessly lie about him and try to destroy him. They want to overthrow Putin and Trump wants to work with him for our mutual benefit.
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Old 10-19-2022, 06:22 PM   #1601
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The fact that Russia is more corrupt than the US (or at least was until recently) is not a reason for all this death and destruction, wasting of 100s of billions of dollars when we have huge deficits and important other needs for the money, the shortages of energy and food etc..

Whatever Russia is, China is at least 10x more dangerous to the world long term.

After Putin dies (either by natural causes or getting overthrown and killed like the other leaders the sociopaths in our government didn't like), they'll probably go after China next, but that one is not going to end well for us.

We could easily work with Putin/Russia, have a positive influence, and slowly bring Russia into the western fold over 15-25 years as an offset to China. Putin will eventually die and hopefully we'll get a better leader to replace him. Instead, we are driving Russia, China, India and other countries into each other's arms and further away from us while creating all this havoc and risk.

I know all the things Trump is that so many people hate about him. But imo he's right on policy more often than not. IMO he's clearly right on Russia and China. That why the neocons/IC hate him so much and use the media to endlessly lie about him and try to destroy him. They want to overthrow Putin and Trump wants to work with him for our mutual benefit.
Explain to me what a country with a GDP less than that of the state of Texas has to offer us? Especially when said country is a state sponsor of terror as Russia now is. Of course Trump wanted to work with Putin, he is a huge fan of Putin's authoritarian leadership style, not to mention how much Trump cozied up to Kin Jong Un.

Until the people of Russia stand up and demand something different, Putin's death will change nothing and perhaps make it worse. Putin, for all the bad things he is, is not crazy or a lunatic, not sure the same can be said of many of his underlings
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Old 10-19-2022, 06:25 PM   #1602
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Of course Trump wanted to work with Putin, he is a huge fan of Putin's authoritarian leadership style, not to mention how much Trump cozied up to Kin Jong Un.
You were doing just fine until the gaslighting started...

But to make you feel better, I'd take Trump allegedly being a fan of authoritarian leadership style and no war in Ukraine over our current dementia-riddled fascist who slams down on free speech with the help of big tech and vows to keep the war going in Ukraine "as long as it takes."

The world was in a much better place when Trump was around.
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Old 10-19-2022, 06:37 PM   #1603
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You were doing just fine until the gaslighting started...

But to make you feel better, I'd take Trump allegedly being a fan of authoritarian leadership style and no war in Ukraine over our current dementia-riddled fascist who slams down on free speech with the help of big tech and vows to keep the war going in Ukraine "as long as it takes."

The world was in a much better place when Trump was around.
I am thoroughly convinced that once Russia is demilitarized by Ukraine, China will go in and have their way with them, probably they will annex Outer Manchuria and hold referendums there

We will be able to sit back and watch.

I've got a novel idea to shut down Biden and Trump, lets amend the law to say that no one who would reach the age of 70 when their term begins would be able to run for president. Then lets work on term limits for the House and the Senate and make serving a priviledge again instead of a lucrative career!
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Old 10-19-2022, 06:39 PM   #1604
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You name it, Russia takes the cake, you could practically say corruption was invented there, don't believe me, ask my wife or my mother in law, both dual citizens.
Those who think the US has a corruption problem should try bribing a cop.

Let us know how it works out for you.
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Old 10-19-2022, 07:06 PM   #1605
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Russia will win.
Just as soon as the new Congress shuts of US aid, which is long overdue.
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