Religion III

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, again, who is the "any" or "anyone" in the 2nd part of b and who is the "you" in the first part of b?

You have now said that:

The "world" does not mean the world.

The "whole world" does not mean whole world.

"Everyone" does not mean everyone

"Any"does not mean any.

"All" does not mean all.

That's what happens when a far right Christian gets dementia.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Higher than most, but not as high as many.

Where and when were you tested?

Originally Posted by boxcar

I told you that once already. I graduated summa cum laude from HKU (Hard Knocks University).

Get serious. Anyone over 50 has that degree.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You have now said that:

The "world" does not mean the world.

The "whole world" does not mean whole world.

"Everyone" does not mean everyone

"Any"does not mean any.

"All" does not mean all.

That's what happens when a far right Christian gets dementia.

You're a liar. I never said what you claim

What I did say is that CONTEXT mainly determines the proper interpretation of words.

Even the larger context of Jn 3:16 which you quoted in part doesn't support your universalism.

John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV

The world God so loves are is all the elect throughout the nations -- Jews and Gentiles comprise the nations of the world. It's only all the "whoever believes in him" that God loves.

Again, look what Jesus said in John 16:

John 16:27-28
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."
NIV

The Father loves Jesus' disciples because they have loved him and because they BELIEVED! The disciples did believe "in the name of God's one and only Son"! And this is why they were loved by Him.

The Pharisees claimed that the "whole world" had gone after Jesus to follow him, but is that true? Jesus never left the Palestine area. His entire ministry was restricted to that area, so explain this to me.

John 12:19
19 So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"
NIV

Or is more reasonable to conclude, that in their frustration with Jesus and his growing popularity among the common people, they used hyperbole?

Or When Paul said that the faith of Christians in Rome is being proclaimed throughout the whole world, does that mean that their Faith (i.e. the Gospel) was preached in North America, South America, Australia, etc.? Or is the phrase "whole world" to be understood in a more restrictive sense such as the known Roman Empire at the time Paul penned that?

Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
NIV

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Where and when were you tested?

Got me. I was pretty young when I was tested. Don't remember all the details.

Get serious. Anyone over 50 has that degree.

Prove it.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Prove it.

You first. Prove that God exists.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

You first. Prove that God exists.

We weren't talking about God, remember? Stay on topic or get new onboard RAM installed.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

What I did say is that CONTEXT mainly determines the proper interpretation of words.

Even the larger context of Jn 3:16 which you quoted in part doesn't support your universalism.

John 3:16-18
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
NIV

There are 45,200 Christian denominations in the world. Only 200 in the U.S. So its no surprise that my interpretation of John 3:16-18 is different than your doom and gloom one.

You don't see that there is a disconnect in those 3 verses. That the God who so loved the world turns around and condemns everyone who doesn’t believe in his Son in the next verse should give you pause. But you are too eager to send everyone to hell for not believing.

I don't really like to get into specific theological arguments like this but I will indulge you this one time just to show you that your interpretation is not the only one and I mentioned there are many. Here Goes:

The original Greek text of 3:18 was

"He who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Notice the word “condemned” was originally “judged”. In other words, in the original Greek text of the Bible, John 3:18 is not primarily about condemnation, but about judging between what is good and bad. Remember, Jesus’ teaching that in order to enter the kingdom of God, we must be born again and he is speaking to Nicodemus who doesn't "get it".

Jesus does not say to Nicodemus that God judges people but that people pronounce judgment on themselves through their actions in John 3:20-21 which is what I keep telling you:

John 3:20 Those who flee the light because their deeds are evil have pronounced judgment on themselves—and it is a judgment of condemnation and spiritual death

John 3:21Those who come to the light so that it may be seen that their deeds are done in God have also pronounced judgment on themselves—and it is a judgment of spiritual life in God’s kingdom.

In short, if you read John 3:18 very carefully, paying attention to what the original Greek words mean, it is not talking about God condemning non-believers, or non-Christians, to eternal hell. Rather, it is talking about people who are closed to the light of truth and do not believe the truth because their deeds are offensive to God thus passing judgment on themselves.

There is no condemnation from God nor does it say God is sending you to hell for your actions. That is what you and hard core Christians read into it.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

We weren't talking about God, remember? Stay on topic ...

The title of this thread is "Religion III." You are the one who's off topic.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

There are 45,200 Christian denominations in the world. Only 200 in the U.S. So its no surprise that my interpretation of John 3:16-18 is different than your doom and gloom one.

You don't see that there is a disconnect in those 3 verses. That the God who so loved the world turns around and condemns everyone who doesn’t believe in his Son in the next verse should give you pause. But you are too eager to send everyone to hell for not believing.

I don't really like to get into specific theological arguments like this but I will indulge you this one time just to show you that your interpretation is not the only one and I mentioned there are many. Here Goes:

The original Greek text of 3:18 was

"He who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Notice the word “condemned” was originally “judged”. In other words, in the original Greek text of the Bible, John 3:18 is not primarily about condemnation, but about judging between what is good and bad. Remember, Jesus’ teaching that in order to enter the kingdom of God, we must be born again and he is speaking to Nicodemus who doesn't "get it".

Jesus does not say to Nicodemus that God judges people but that people pronounce judgment on themselves through their actions in John 3:20-21 which is what I keep telling you:

John 3:20 Those who flee the light because their deeds are evil have pronounced judgment on themselves—and it is a judgment of condemnation and spiritual death

John 3:21Those who come to the light so that it may be seen that their deeds are done in God have also pronounced judgment on themselves—and it is a judgment of spiritual life in God’s kingdom.

In short, if you read John 3:18 very carefully, paying attention to what the original Greek words mean, it is not talking about God condemning non-believers, or non-Christians, to eternal hell. Rather, it is talking about people who are closed to the light of truth and do not believe the truth because their deeds are offensive to God thus passing judgment on themselves.

There is no condemnation from God nor does it say God is sending you to hell for your actions. That is what you and hard core Christians read into it.

The last thing anyone should want is to stand before the Creator of the Universe to be judged! Christians will never be judged for "right or wrong" because Christ took the judgment (condemnation) of God's elect upon himself on the Cross. As pointed out previously, God will never judge or condemn anyone He has already justified (declared to be righteous) in Christ, as it it would be unjust to punish the same sins twice.

You better get a new translation because Jn 3:20-21 don't remotely read as you have it above.

Here is a very literal translation of the above two verses:

John 3:20-21

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;

21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'
YLT

The stilted rendering above is more smoothly translated in the NIV:

John 3:20-21
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
NIV

You naively think you have mitigated what you believe to be the harsher rendering the Gr. term "krineatai" of v. 18 which reads condemned, in many translations, by substituting judged or judgment in its place. But you haven't. When Jesus returns on the Last Day he separates the peoples of the world into two groups -- "goats" and "sheep". But it's only the former group who will come into judgment and be condemned forever.

And don't miss the nuance of placement of the two groups, which might be lost to those who don't understand ancient cultures. To be at the "right hand" of a King is to be in a place of high honor, but not so with those on his left. Listen to what your "best friend" taught. He should know what he's talking about since He is the Judge of the entire world.

Matt 25:31-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats . 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
NIV

And my interpretation of Jn 3:16 is only "doom and gloom" to you. It's glorious for the children of God because we take great comfort and delight at the thought of his grace for us and the justice that he will render for all the wicked. It is very comforting to know that in the eternal, visible kingdom only the Righteous will dwell with God for all eternity.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

The last thing anyone should want is to stand before the Creator of the Universe to be judged! Christians will never be judged for "right or wrong" because Christ took the judgment (condemnation) of God's elect upon himself on the Cross. As pointed out previously, God will never judge or condemn anyone He has already justified (declared to be righteous) in Christ, as it it would be unjust to punish the same sins twice.

Show me where it says in the Bible that Christ died only for Christians or his "elect" and not the world.

Originally Posted by boxcar

You better get a new translation because Jn 3:20-21 don't remotely read as you have it above.

I told you that I was using the original Greek. I assumed you understood that
my 3:20-21 was also the original Greek.

Originally Posted by boxcar

It's glorious for the children of God because we take great comfort and delight at the thought of his grace for us and the justice that he will render for all the wicked.

So you will delight yourself in Heaven with the suffering of the wicked? That in and of itself sounds wicked to me.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Show me where it says in the Bible that Christ died only for Christians or his "elect" and not the world.

Here: Chew on this one. I have more from where that came from, also, if you're still not happy.

Eph 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
NIV

]I told you that I was using the original Greek. I assumed you understood that my 3:20-21 was also the original Greek.

Again, what translation did you use? You know about as much Greek as you know the bible! So...which translation did you use that "used he original Greek? (As though other translations, don't?)

So you will delight yourself in Heaven with the suffering of the wicked? That in and of itself sounds wicked to me.

I will delight myself in heaven with my exceedingly great reward (Gen 15:1), and God's holy mountain will never be marred with even the slightest scintilla of wickedness.

Ps 15
15:1 A psalm of David.


LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
Who may live on your holy hill?

2 He whose walk is blameless
and who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from his heart
3 and has no slander on his tongue,
who does his neighbor no wrong
and casts no slur on his fellowman,
4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the LORD,
who keeps his oath
even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury
and does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

He who does these things
will never be shaken.
NIV

Hardly describes the wicked world in which we live.

But if God's saints are to despise all evil in this world, how much more in the eternal kingdom where only Righteousness and Holiness dwells?

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Here: Chew on this one. I have more from where that came from, also, if you're still not happy.

Eph 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
NIV

I don't think there could be a more irrelevant argument than what you present here for proving that Jesus died only for his "elect".

Originally Posted by boxcar

Again, what translation did you use? You know about as much Greek as you know the bible!

So all theologians must be Greek to cite Greek texts? Funny you never believed Thask.

Originally Posted by boxcar

So...which translation did you use that "used he original Greek? (As though other translations, don't?)

Young’s Literal Translation (1862) which sticks much more closely to the exact words and expressions of the original Greek

Originally Posted by boxcar

I will delight myself in heaven with my exceedingly great reward (Gen 15:1), and God's holy mountain will never be marred with even the slightest scintilla of wickedness.

Not what you said before. You said:

Originally Posted by boxcar

It's glorious for the children of God because we take great comfort and delight at the thought of his grace for us and the justice that he will render for all the wicked.

Watch Star Wars fool. This ^^^ is the trick the Evil Emperor used to try to trick Skywalker into taking vengeance on him so he could turn him to the dark side.

[Light]

In case you don't get it which you never do, hate breeds hate. If you hate your enemies,you too will be filled with hate. That is why Jesus said to Love your enemies. Because Love breeds Love. Obviously Jesus/God will have Love for the "wicked" because they are wise, not foolish like you celebrating your hatred and soon to be turned into a tool for it.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

I don't think there could be a more irrelevant argument than what you present here for proving that Jesus died only for his "elect".

If the elect aren't God's Church, who are they?

Also, Ephesians was written to the Church, not to the world! Paul didn't send his letters to the entire world. His letters were circulated to Christ's church.

Eph 1:1
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
NIV

The world is NOT "the faithful in Christ Jesus".

Moreover, the world belongs to the evil one. He is the "prince of this world" (Jn 16:11), according to your "best friend".

So all theologians must be Greek to cite Greek texts? Funny you never believed Thask.

He wasn't very schooled in the Koine Gr.

Young’s Literal Translation (1862) which sticks much more closely to the exact words and expressions of the original Greek.

Really? How come my YLT doesn't read anything like the garbage you posted?

John 3:18-20
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19'And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
YLT

Not what you said before. You said:

How would not having to dwell with the wicked for all eternity be a bad thing?

Watch Star Wars fool. This ^^^ is the trick the Evil Emperor used to try to trick Skywalker into taking vengeance on him so he could turn him to the dark side.

[/quote]

Fantasy is more your schtick. After all, you're the one who seems to believes"unconditional" is an attribute of God.

[boxcar]

Hey, Light-n-Loafers, if Jesus atoned for sins of everyone in the world, then why did he specifically exclude the world in his prayer to his Father in John 17? Explain that to me. Clearly, Jesus mentioned 3 groups in his prayer. He only prayed for 2 of those groups.