Religion III

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If the elect aren't God's Church, who are they?

Also, Ephesians was written to the Church, not to the world! Paul didn't send his letters to the entire world. His letters were circulated to Christ's church.

Earth to Boxcar, we are still discussing John 3-16, not Paul. You have not proved your assertion that the word "world" means his "elect" in John 3-16. I disproved that it means his "elect" with the original Greek text.:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice too that it doesn't say God loved "his world" but "the world" which should be a big clue for you.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Really? How come my YLT doesn't read anything like the garbage you posted?

John 3:18-20
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19'And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;

Actually it does if you can read. There are different versions of the YLT but even if I use yours (above), It uses the word "judgement" not "condemned" as I stated before.

Originally Posted by boxcar

How would not having to dwell with the wicked for all eternity be a bad thing?

Not what you said before Mr. trying to weasel out of your own BS.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hey, Light-n-Loafers, if Jesus atoned for sins of everyone in the world, then why did he specifically exclude the world in his prayer to his Father in John 17? Explain that to me. Clearly, Jesus mentioned 3 groups in his prayer. He only prayed for 2 of those groups.

Be more specific.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Be more specific.

What's the matter, you can't find John 17 in your bible? Can you even count to three? Jesus mentions three groups in his prayer; but only prays for two of them.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Earth to Boxcar, we are still discussing John 3-16, not Paul. You have not proved your assertion that the word "world" means his "elect" in John 3-16. I disproved that it means his "elect" with the original Greek text.:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Notice too that it doesn't say God loved "his world" but "the world" which should be a big clue for you.

Regarding the term "world", as I proved yesterday, the term can be used in a broad or narrow sense. In this verse he's praying the elect throughout the world, i.e. the "whoever believes in him", which hardly describes the world. You have even admitted recently that the world is filled with all kinds of different religions, so obviously the world at large does not believe in Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, God only loves those who love his Son and believe on Him, per John 14, remember?

Also, you need to square your interpretation of John 3:16 with Mat 25:31-46 wherein Jesus talks about Judgment Day when all the nations, i.e. the world are gathered before him and HE separates the peoples of those nations into two groups: the Sheep and the Goats. If Jn 3:16 is teaching that God so loved the world that he sent his Son to die for all, in the distributive sense, they why does your "best friend" separate the world into two groups, give them different names, and then condemn the Goats to hell for eternity? You need to reconcile this passage with your inane interpretation of Jn 3:16.

Actually it does if you can read. There are different versions of the YLT but even if I use yours (above), It uses the word "judgement" not "condemned" as I stated before.

But your version doesn't read anywhere close to the way mine does. Why don't you provide a link for your favored version of the YLT? I'm really curious to see how such literal -- word-for-word translations can vary so much.

Not what you said before Mr. trying to weasel out of your own BS.

Anyway, you slice it or dice it, the eternal, visible kingdom will be a much better place without the wicked.

And you really are dense! You asked me earlier to provide one passage that says Jesus died for the Father's elect. So, I did in Ephesians 5.

Here's a companion passage to the above:

Acts 20:27-28
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
NIV

Finally, if God's Son Jesus atoned for the sins of the entire world, you need to show us from scripture the redemptive covenant that God made with the entire world. When did Jesus institute the New Covenant for the entire world? God's relationship with mankind historically has always been made through covenants -- always. So, show us the covenant that God made with each and every person in the world.

And whatever you do, don't forget to enlighten us on Jesus' prayer in John 17. You need to explain to us why he omitted the world from his prayer.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Hey, Light-n-Loafers, if Jesus atoned for sins of everyone in the world, then why did he specifically exclude the world in his prayer to his Father in John 17? Explain that to me. Clearly, Jesus mentioned 3 groups in his prayer. He only prayed for 2 of those groups.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Jesus mentions three groups in his prayer; but only prays for two of them.

In 17:20 he does pray for the world:

20 “I do not pray for these alone, (the two groups you mentioned) but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

Notice the world "will" implying future tense, those who still do not believe.

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Regarding the term "world", as I proved yesterday, the term can be used in a broad or narrow sense. In this verse he's praying the elect throughout the world, i.e. the "whoever believes in him", which hardly describes the world.

IF AS YOU SAY,JESUS DIED ONLY FOR FOR HIS ELECT WHO ALREADY BELIEVE IN HIM AND ARE ALREADY SAVED WHY WOULD HE ALLOW HIMSELF TO BE CRUCIFIED ON THE CROSS FOR THOSE THAT ARE ALREADY SAVED. YOUR ARGUMENT IS RETARDED.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

In 17:20 he does pray for the world:

20 “I do not pray for these alone, (the two groups you mentioned) but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;

Notice the world "will" implying future tense, those who still do not believe.

You mean Jesus contradicted himself? Why did you omit this verse from his prayer:

John 17:9
9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
NIV

So...if the whole world was given to Jesus, why would he omit them from his prayer? The world is the second group mentioned in the prayer.

The "but" that begins part b of the above text is contrasting the two groups.

Also, v. 20 is the third group -- the future believers. For these he prayed. But he did not pray for the world at large. He only prayed for the Father's elect, i.e. all those who the Father has given to the Son throughout this age.

Verse 20 tells us that his prayer is not "for them alone", i.e those contemporary with Him. He's clearly praying for two groups of believers. It's no wonder he didn't pray for the entire world, since most of the world does not believe in Christ, and it has pleased God to let them continue in their unbelief and, therefore, eventually die in their sins and ultimately be judged for them and pay their own sin debt.

[Light]

You are skirting the point I made in my last post. Explain why Jesus would allow himself to be crucified for only his elect when they are already saved.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

You are skirting the point I made in my last post. Explain why Jesus would allow himself to be crucified for only his elect when they are already saved.

Because He actually had to satisfy God's justice! I have pointed this out of several occasions regarding the Cross of Christ. I have said often that the Cross of Christ demonstrates God's love and justice, as the scriptures teach.

What you're also failing to understand is that the elect were predestined by God in eternity to be saved in space and time. That salvation wasn't actually accomplished for God's chosen people until Christ shed his blood on the cross. Jesus had to actually pay the penalty of sin for all those the Father had given to Him to be saved. And that penalty, of course, is death.

[boxcar]

By the way, Light-headed, has your beloved and most favored bible translation in the whole world fallen out of favor with you? Of course, I'm talking about the King James Version. I recall distinctly how you sung the praises of the KJV because that translation rendered Lk 17:21 in a way that tickled your ears. And of course, you criticized and maligned all the other translations that were rendered differently...and more accurately, I might add.

But now more recently you quote supposedly from some rendition of the YLT (which I'm still waiting to receive a link on ) because you didn't care for how Jn 3:17-19 was rendered in the NIV, NASB, etc. You didn't care for the term "condemned". So, since this is the case, are you now going to "condemn" the KJV since it doesn't read the way you want for that passage? Were the KJV translators biased, or did they have a theological axe to grind or a theological agenda to pursue that they butchered the Gr. term by rendering it "condemned"?

John 3:17-19
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
KJV

I'm already waiting with bated breath for you to come down on the KJV with a sledge hammer..

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[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

That salvation wasn't actually accomplished for God's chosen people until Christ shed his blood on the cross.

There are no verses in the Bible that specifically state that Jesus died only for the elect. The Bible is full of verses that say Jesus died for all .

For example this verse From 1 Tim 2.3 is pretty clear that God is not limited to the "elect"

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

or

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 1:29 is certainly not saying that Jesus takes away the sins of the "elect" because if he was he would say he takes away the sins of those who believe in him.

But here in 1 Timothy 4:10 there is a distinction between Jesus’ dying as the savior of all people in a general way and the Christian elect in a particular way, saying,

“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”

So yeah Jesus died for both his elect an non elect. God is not a Calvinist.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

There are no verses in the Bible that specifically state that Jesus died only for the elect. The Bible is full of verses that say Jesus died for all .

For example this verse From 1 Tim 2.3 is pretty clear that God is not limited to the "elect"

3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

or

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 1:29 is certainly not saying that Jesus takes away the sins of the "elect" because if he was he would say he takes away the sins of those who believe in him.

But here in 1 Timothy 4:10 there is a distinction between Jesus’ dying as the savior of all people in a general way and the Christian elect in a particular way, saying,

“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.”

So yeah Jesus died for both his elect an non elect. God is not a Calvinist.

You're repeating yourself to no avail. I already proved that "all" or "whole world" can be used in the limited sense in scripture. You never responded to my 8763.

Furthermore, there is not one text in all scripture that says that Jesus died for each and every person in the world.. You're reading that into passages. However, there are plenty of passages that teach that God would give to Jesus the nations of the world. A Jew would have clearly understood that the "world" = Jews + Gentiles because to a Jewish mind these were the only two kinds of people in the world. In fact, most Jews still think this way!

Isa 49:5-6

5 And now the LORD says —
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength —
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
NIV

The text above does not say that God's Messiah would bring salvation to each and every person on the earth.

Ditto for the Abrahamic Covenant in which God promised to Abraham that all the NATIONS (Gentiles) of the earth would be blessed through Abraham's seed (Genesis 12, 15, 17, etc.)-- the "seed" being Christ (Gal 3:16-18).

In Christ's Great Commission to his disciples, he did not command them to preach the Gospel to each and every person on the earth. He commanded them to go into the nations to preach the Gospel; for God's elect are scattered throughout all the nations of the earth.

But on top of all this, you have two insurmountable problems to overcome to prove your heresy of universalism.

1. God is a COVENANT God.. This is proven throughout all scripture that when God enters into a personal relationship with people, he does this through is sovereign covenants. When He chose Israel to be his people on this earth, he created the Mosaic Covenant through which they would enter into that personal relationship. In fact, in prior to the Mosaic Covenant, Abraham himself, and all the males of his family and even his male servants had to keep God's Covenant of Circumcision. And while Abraham is the [spiritual] father of MANY nations, he is only the father of those who have his kind of faith (Rom 3:27-4:25) But God eventually promised the Israelities that he would create a New Covenant with them which Jesus did at the Last Supper and He ratified that covenant in his blood on the Cross. But Jesus didn't make that New Covenant with each and every person in world -- he made that covenant with his disciples at that Supper, and by extension all the Gentile sheep that the Jewish believers would bring into the [covenant]sheepfold (read John 10 the Good Shepherd Discourse). Therefore, God never made a universal redemptive covenant with the entire world. His covenant is only with his chosen people, i.e. the elect.

2. Your second huge obstacle can be found in John 6 wherein Jesus very clearly teaches that only those whom the Father gives to Him will come to Him. In other words, they will come to Jesus IN FAITH! You need to read carefully the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, especially vv. 35-51. Jesus no where teaches in that discourse that the Father gives to him each and every person in the world. He simply said that "all those who the Father gives to me WILL come to me..." Now look very carefully at v. 40 of this passage:

John 6:40
40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
NIV

So...if your universalism is true, then you need to explain why the entire world isn't filled with disciples of Jesus Christ. Why isn't the entire world filled with believers!? Why doesn't each and every person in the world believe in Jesus? What you don't understand is that God's salvation if not just for the future redemption of believers -- but his salvation applies to this present age as well! God not only justifies those in Christ for the future, but Christ also saves his people from the power of [ongoing] sin in this age. God's elect will repent of their sins in this world and come to believe in the Messiah in this present age, and as a result their lives will be supernaturally transformed. So...while God's salvation for his elect was decreed in eternity past, it is always applied in time and space to his people through the work of the Holy Spirit and the Living Word of God.

In conclusion, you need to provide biblical chapter ad verse proof that God has established a redemptive covenant with each and every person in the world -- in other words a universal redemptive covenant. (Good luck with that.)

Secondly, you need to explain why the entire world -- why each and every person in this world -- is not saved right now by faith in Christ. If what you say is true and God's salvation is universal in scope, then you need to explain why each and every person in the world isn't a born again believer -- right now as we speak. Why isn't each and every person in the world looking to the Son of God in faith, which would also be the Father's will, if universalism were true? (Good luck with this, too.)

P.S.And you still haven't explained why Jesus excluded the the world in his High Priestly prayer in John 17! How come Jesus didn't pray for each and every person in the world?

P.P.S And you haven't addressed Jesus' end of the Judgment remarks in Matthew 25. Jesus only laid down his life for his sheep in John 10, not the goats which he judges, according to Matthew 25.

Quit sounding like a mindless broken record, already, and get busy addressing the biblical arguments I have raised.

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