Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Off Topic > Off Topic - General


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 05-12-2017, 07:06 PM   #1651
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by traynor View Post

You may find various works on constructed memories interesting.
I do.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
Show Me the Wire is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:09 PM   #1652
Light
Veteran
 
Light's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
No, Jesus made a play on words. He spoke obscurely for the same reason he taught in parables.
WOW.

Jesus couldn't have made it more clear and direct with the statement: "its not here or there its within you". Simple. What is there to misunderstand?

When you change it to "its in our midst" its not so clear and then you have to cover that incoherent change with things like he spoke "obscurely" or in "parables".

The only one speaking obscurely and in parables is you.

Last edited by Light; 05-12-2017 at 07:12 PM.
Light is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:09 PM   #1653
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey View Post
Please, please tell me that you do not personally BELIEVE in the above, do you...? If you do, I'm not going to take anything you post from now on seriously...

Oh my. What would I do without your approval?

However, I guess we would be even, in that, I never took anything you posted seriously. So we are good.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
Show Me the Wire is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:13 PM   #1654
traynor
Registered User
 
traynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire View Post
Angels were not meant to procreate. They are a fixed number.

Is this conjecture, or is there some reported statement that such was the case? What is the origin of the "angels"? Were they also "created" or were they pre-existing?


Angels, watchers, who came to earth violated their nature. (Luke 20:35-36) Knowingly they were committing a grave act, that bound themselves with imprecations upon it. (1 Enoch 6:3-6)

Why would they do such a thing? It seems more likely that they were acting consistently with their natures (or "true natures") rather than in some more (expected/desired) constrained manner.

Mankind is to take the place of the fallen angels in the celestial realm.

Why? Would it not be possible to simply create more angels (if they were created)? That implies both a lack of angels and a need for mankind. That is, a different type of relationship than most seem to believe exists. More quid pro quo than beaming benevolence.

The children of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. They can no longer die, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are the ones who will rise
Luke 20:34-36

Given the vernacular of the time, one could easily interpret this to mean virgins, not converts. That, too, implies a different type of relationship.



29. Thus it pleased God, Creator and Governor of the universe, that since the whole multitude of the angels had not perished in this desertion of him, those who had perished would remain forever in perdition, but those who had remained loyal through the revolt should go on rejoicing in the certain knowledge of the bliss forever theirs. From the other part of the rational creation—that is, mankind—although it had perished as a whole through sins and punishments, both original and personal, God had determined that a portion of it would be restored and would fill up the loss which that diabolical disaster had caused in the angelic society. For this is the promise to the saints at the resurrection, that they shall be equal to the angels of God.
St. Augustine's 'Enchiridion', Chapter 9 [emphasis added]
"angelic society" ???? There was a society of angels? And why did they revolt? Why did they desert?

Last edited by traynor; 05-12-2017 at 07:15 PM.
traynor is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:13 PM   #1655
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
WOW.

Jesus couldn't have made it more clear and direct with the statement: "its not here or there its within you". Simple. What is there to misunderstand?

When you change it to "its in our midst" its not so clear and then you have to cover that incoherent change with things like he spoke "obscurely" or in "parables". The only one speaking obscurely and in parables is you.
Why bother?
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
Show Me the Wire is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:18 PM   #1656
VigorsTheGrey
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire View Post
Oh my. What would I do without your approval?

However, I guess we would be even, in that, I never took anything you posted seriously. So we are good.
You failed to answer whether you actually believe what you posted...I know that you are under no obligation to do so...still I would like to know...thanks.
VigorsTheGrey is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:21 PM   #1657
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReplayRandall View Post
Boxcar, you are a brother in Christ, but that's as far as it goes, we don't mix well. Let's just leave it at that...
Fair enough. And I'll work on finding my stubbornness.
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
boxcar is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:23 PM   #1658
traynor
Registered User
 
traynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire View Post
I do.
One of the best learning experiences of my life was watching Mel Belli (WAY back) on The Donahue Show. Belli and Donahue sat down, started going blah blah and something happened. A person in the audience started shouting, gesturing, got up on the stage, did some other stuff, said some other stuff, and then ran off stage.

Belli stood up, instructed the audience not to discuss what had happened in any way, but to write down--as accurately as possible, and in as much detail as possible--what they had just "witnessed." A truly humbling experience.
traynor is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:27 PM   #1659
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
Quote:
Is this conjecture, or is there some reported statement that such was the case? What is the origin of the "angels"? Were they also "created" or were they pre-existing?
I cited scripture as the statement. The children of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Marriage is for procreation.

It is thought they were created when God created light.

Quote:
Why would they do such a thing? It seems more likely that they were acting consistently with their natures (or "true natures") rather than in some more (expected/desired) constrained manner.
Supposedly, out of jealousy of mankind and man's ability to procreate.

Quote:
Why? Would it not be possible to simply create more angels (if they were created)? That implies both a lack of angels and a need for mankind. That is, a different type of relationship than most seem to believe exists. More quid pro quo than beaming benevolence.
Yes, it is believed there was a need for mankind. I don't know what most believe about the relationship.

Quote:
Given the vernacular of the time, one could easily interpret this to mean virgins, not converts. That, too, implies a different type of relationship.
No. The response is given to answer the following question. they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man[f] must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second 31 and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died. 33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington

Last edited by Show Me the Wire; 05-12-2017 at 07:35 PM.
Show Me the Wire is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:35 PM   #1660
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
Quote:
"angelic society" ???? There was a society of angels? And why did they revolt? Why did they desert?
Well Satan revolted and led a third of his fellow angels, because he rather rule in hell than serve God . The watcher's according to Enoch, due to lust for the daughters of men.

It is not entirely clear if there was one or two revolts. Many have theorized the forbidden fruit is sex with satan.

The Jewish people have more lore about angels than Christians.

So some of these things I am repeating come from Jewish lore.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
Show Me the Wire is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 07:46 PM   #1661
boxcar
Registered User
 
boxcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 46,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
WOW.

Jesus couldn't have made it more clear and direct with the statement: "its not here or there its within you". Simple. What is there to misunderstand?

When you change it to "its in our midst" its not so clear and then you have to cover that incoherent change with things like he spoke "obscurely" or in "parables".

The only one speaking obscurely and in parables is you.
You miss the irony of the passage entirely! The Pharisees were looking for grand, spectacular signs for the COMING kingdom, totally missing the fact of all Jesus' spectacular miracles during his PRESENT ministry. So, he simply told them truth: The kingdom is standing in your midst. This is why he told them:

Luke 17:21a
21 nor will they say,' Look, here it is!' or,' There it is!
NASB

The "kingdom" about which they inquired was standing right in front of them! It was closer than "right at hand"!

Have you never read Jesus' rebuke to the Pharisees and Sadducees?

Matt 16:1-4
16 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Him asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 But He answered and said to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' 3 "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4 "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah." And He left them, and went away.
NASB

What were the "signs of the times"? Were they not all Jesus' spectacular works and miracles? How often did Jesus perform miracles right in the presence of these religious leaders? And what effect did it have on their hardened hearts? They hated him all the more! So Jesus alluded to the final greatest sign of all -- his impending death and resurrection, i.e. the "sign of Jonah". Do you think they understood what he meant by that obscure phrase?
__________________
Consistent profits can only be made on the basis of analysis that is far from obvious to the majority. - anonymous guru
boxcar is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 08:27 PM   #1662
traynor
Registered User
 
traynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire View Post
I cited scripture as the statement. The children of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Marriage is for procreation.

Sex is for procreation. Marriage is a societal custom, not a biological necessity.



It is thought they were created when God created light.

By "god" or by something else? Assuming that they were created, and that "god" created everything, why would they contain elements that would later cause them to revolt/defect? Specifically, if "god" created them in accord with some pattern, why was the pattern flawed?



Supposedly, out of jealousy of mankind and man's ability to procreate.

That seems unbelievable. More like an after-the-fact rationalization to elevate the self-image of a herd of domestic animals, sent forth to "be fruitful and multiply." Why would an angel possibly--by any wild stretch of the imagination--choose sex with females of what must have seemed an inferior species in exchange for whatever reward they were supposed to have for blind obedience and non-stop adulation of their "creator"?



Yes, it is believed there was a need for mankind. I don't know what most believe about the relationship.

Was that need ever explicitly stated?



No. The response is given to answer the following question. they asked him a question, saying, “Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies, having a wife but no children, the man[f] must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. 29 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife, and died without children. 30 And the second 31 and the third took her, and likewise all seven left no children and died. 32 Afterward the woman also died. 33 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.”
I don't understand this part. You wrote,"The children of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Marriage is for procreation."

That seems to (perhaps obscured in the contractual fine print) indicate that the only survivors will be the "worthy" ones, who--from the citation--would seem to be virgins. Not surprising, in view of the "revolt and defection" of those (including angels) "swayed by the pleasures of the flesh from the true path" (or whatever it is supposed to be).
traynor is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 08:43 PM   #1663
traynor
Registered User
 
traynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire View Post
Well Satan revolted and led a third of his fellow angels, because he rather rule in hell than serve God . The watcher's according to Enoch, due to lust for the daughters of men.

I mean no disrespect, but that would seem to indicate that "serving god" may not be the best possible outcome. "lust for the daughters of men" seems insufficient as a reason to revolt/defect/desert and leave what is portrayed as some eternally blissful endless future.


It is not entirely clear if there was one or two revolts. Many have theorized the forbidden fruit is sex with satan.

Or is it sex of any kind? Specifically, if the "pleasure" of sex were removed, how prevalent would it be? .

The Jewish people have more lore about angels than Christians.

So some of these things I am repeating come from Jewish lore.
I think there is a whole lot left unexplained, or swept under the celestial carpet.
traynor is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 08:51 PM   #1664
traynor
Registered User
 
traynor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,626
"In Milton's Paradise Lost (1674), the angel Lucifer leads a rebellion against God before the Fall of Man. A third of the angels, including pagan gods such as Moloch and Belial, are hurled from Heaven."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Heaven

That came from another book.
traynor is offline  
Old 05-12-2017, 08:55 PM   #1665
Show Me the Wire
Quintessential guru
 
Show Me the Wire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 11,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by traynor View Post
I don't understand this part. You wrote,"The children of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are deemed worthy to attain to the coming age and to the resurrection of the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. Marriage is for procreation."

That seems to (perhaps obscured in the contractual fine print) indicate that the only survivors will be the "worthy" ones, who--from the citation--would seem to be virgins. Not surprising, in view of the "revolt and defection" of those (including angels) "swayed by the pleasures of the flesh from the true path" (or whatever it is supposed to be).

Actually, it is written in Scripture, not me. Jesus answered the supposedly trick question about resurrection of the dead. Not all Jews believed in eternal life. The Sadducee believed once you die you are dead, the human spirit, soul, consciousness dies with you. The Pharisees believed in eternal life and resurrection.

So the person tried to trick Jesus to admitting the resurrection of the body could not happen due to the logistics of Jewish custom. The logistical problem is what happens in the resurrection, to woman who has been married to seven brothers due to Jewish custom. Whose wife would she be after the resurrection the first brother, the last, etc.?

The answer, given by Jesus, mankind, while in the temporal world are given to marriage, to procreate, which is an activity proper to life on earth. The first command, given by God, in the Bible is for man to be fruitful and multiply( procreate).

Now, remember the only reason the woman was married to seven brothers was due to the failure to procreate with the prior brother. After the resurrection, according to Jesus there is no procreation and thus no marriage. Man would be like the angels having no need to procreate.

The survivors, who receive eternal life, are the ones who believe in Jesus. The virginity or being a virgin is not a requirement to have eternal life through Jesus.
__________________
A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.
George Washington
Show Me the Wire is offline  
Closed Thread




Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.