Syndicate Betting

[aaron]

Originally Posted by Gorrex

Which is exactly why we developed our TRU odds display that aggregates current pool data, past race double data and willpays.

Its not an accurate prediction of anything.. but it IS good for spotting when a runner is way off on current win odds. As it nears post they tend to get closer and closer to actual. Races without double and or willpays have less data to work with but EX can sometimes help.

I agree with that. Races without DD will pays are harder to analyze, but following the exacta's can somewhat narrow it down.Certain trainers on the circuit might also cause a late change in odds.I have seen certain trainers really get bet in will pays, but I am not sure what that means, because some of the trainers bet do not win often. It looks top me like it is computer bettors liking in a profit, just in case. Can definitely be misleading.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by Gorrex

I can't argue that.

It is part of parimutuel and honestly there is no fix that I have heard of or as of yet thought of. Faster cycles doesn't solve that issue and at some point updating too fast would be an issue for human perception times.

In the end everyone betting knows they should bet as late as possible to get the best information so they do ..

No, perception times are not an issue here. Not even close



You dont need sub second updates, but updating every 2 or 3 seconds is not too much to ask in 2019


These 30-60 second cycles are so 1970



The tote system as it exists in the USA is an embarrassment




Free advice, if you don't want to overload the dixie cup infrastructure, you could simply have faster updating only in the last few minutes before off time . That would work just as well


up to 1 min 45 sec

below that much faster

[thaskalos]

I tried betting on the 8th race at Zia Park today, by way of Twinspires. I was told that the race was off and my bet was rejected...even though the site's video showed that none of the horses had even GOTTEN to the starting gate. Is this normal for Zia Park...or do they operate with a 3 minute video time-delay?

[Gorrex]

Two of the three tote systems in the US can and do run true 5 second WIN cycles now. Generally they do that after 10 or 5 MTP.

However... Most display systems and some ADWs cannot process and display it that fast. Ours does.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by Gorrex

Two of the three tote systems in the US can and do run true 5 second WIN cycles now. Generally they do that after 10 or 5 MTP.

However... Most display systems and some ADWs cannot process and display it that fast. Ours does.

Well, we could all chip in a few 100 bucks and buy one or two dell servers , which could probably handle the whole country.



The amount of data involved is trivial . The entire win/exacta/dd matrix which is all they are showing can be transmitted and processed in .00000000000000001 seconds.


Tell me i'm wrong.

[Prof.Factor]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

Well, we could all chip in a few 100 bucks and buy one or two dell servers , which could probably handle the whole country.



The amount of data involved is trivial . The entire win/exacta/dd matrix which is all they are showing can be transmitted and processed in .00000000000000001 seconds.


Tell me i'm wrong.

Considering speed of light takes .000005363440860215053763440860215054 seconds to travel a mile ... Einstein would say you're wrong. Unless your system uses quantum computers for processing and entangled electrons for data transfer. Then I beg your pardon.
Heck, it takes my browser 3-5 seconds just to refresh the screen after sending a request.:-)

[Gorrex]

I'm not saying its impossible and it has almost nothing to do with the computers themselves.

The software and methods used are the issue. Replacing software means replacing other hardware (tote boards, etc..) and none of that is cheap. Most of this industry runs on shoe string budgets save a few of the big dogs. Anyway.. today the issue with updating odds more often is not a tote issue. (Final odds taking so damn long is though..)

And yes.. we will never (baring quantum entanglement and other still way out there tech) get under a several second delay in transmission its just physically impossible. Update speed has little to do with that though.

[Gorrex]

To expound on the last statement in my last post..

Speed of light dictates potentially a few seconds in transmission from distant points but that does not mean updates must take a few seconds. It is entirely possible to send MANY updates before even one response is received.

AND that above is part of why most of our tote systems are "slow". They rely entirely on confirmed/acknowledged receipt before sending anything else. It would be possible to move to a hybrid system that only requires acknowledgement of receipt on some "critical" messages. (Post Time, Wagers, etc..)

This is routinely done in video game development to an extreme degree. Critcial messages and updates are sent over TCP which confirms all transmissions. But 90% of traffic is sent over UDP and the server never knows or cares if they were received. Thats the only way video games can approach "real time".

[NY BRED]

in the final analysis ,were internet betting eliminated(highly improbable) would this problem be eliminated?

second thought; if the respective tracks, networks or betting sites presented the various syndicate wagers (total pools) throughout the wagering cycle (prior to post time),individuals (non syndicate) bettors making "normal" wagers could void their wagers thereby lowering expected returns to these syndicates .





...

[Gorrex]

The problem would only be eliminated if you go back to wagering only on track on only that track.

Otherwise.. problem exists.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Gorrex

Which is exactly why we developed our TRU odds display that aggregates current pool data, past race double data and willpays.

Its not an accurate prediction of anything.. but it IS good for spotting when a runner is way off on current win odds. As it nears post they tend to get closer and closer to actual. Races without double and or willpays have less data to work with but EX can sometimes help.

Is it possible to breakdown a horizontal bet by horse in each leg of the bet? If so, how hard would it be to have a matrix board showing bet totals for each leg of the bet by horse? So if $200,000 was bet in a P-4 you could see how the $200,000 is bet for each horse in all of the 4 races. And most importantly, can this be done before the race is off and be updated each time the toteboard is updated?

[Gorrex]

Currently tote systems do not transfer anything over a 3x matrix and only rarely ever do that.

So Pick 3 and up remotes have no data for except the wagers made on their local system.

Trifecta and up remotes also have no data for.

ONLY the host has the full data and then normally only how much money on each runner in each leg, not the actual ticket structures.

So most of the time the host track could show "live" money in picks as they progress but few do. ADWs, OTBs, off track places cannot.

[Robert Fischer]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I tried betting on the 8th race at Zia Park today, by way of Twinspires. I was told that the race was off and my bet was rejected...even though the site's video showed that none of the horses had even GOTTEN to the starting gate. Is this normal for Zia Park...or do they operate with a 3 minute video time-delay?

ADW's are prone to a short delay in general, as well 'lag' (can be mitigated somewhat by 'refreshing' the video feed and/or logging in/out... I often have two different adws open in seperate tabs, and notice that they can be out-of-sync.

Twinspires has saved me about $20 this year on shut-out lags... (I guess my own personal record is poor when I'm impulsive or rushed).

Can be annoying. If worried about delay, kind of have to 'refesh' for very important races + wrap it up when they start the loading process(or sooner, if you can work it into your simulcast lineup and don't see a benefit to waiting much longer), (unless you are doing some kind of last-second odds info or negative= gate-trouble angle and accept the tradeoff of possible shut-out).

[Robert Fischer]

My man "Ross Boss" at Finger Lakes R2 today was 2/1 for the first quarter, but dropped to 1/1 mid-race! and pays $4.30.


It didn't bother me, because the multi-race pools indicated that would be the clear favorite. I liked his last race on video, so used the 'live' tote stuff to single him in some multis going forward. Didn't trust the $6+ Win odds...


Is that 'syndicate' money? Is it just the 'smart' money waiting until the gate?

For someone on track, experiencing a-day-at-the-races, that's gotta suck.

[AltonKelsey]

Not all tracks are doing this , but they should be showing the actual time of day down to the second on the screen , so you know how much of a lag you're dealing with . That would prevent most shut outs.