Syndicate Betting

[MPRanger]

My question is how do these groups get so much money in at the last tick?

1) Multiple individuals betting on a signal?
2) Are any of them directly wired into the tote system?
3) Who pays the kick back money to those who get kick backs?
4) Do they prefer the co-mingled tote system or offshore books?


If someone gets a kick back, they can convert my overlay
into an underlay but it's still an overlay to them due to the
kick back.

I'm not whining about their existence. I accept it.
I'd just like to understand more about the mechanics of it.


Thanks,

[MPRanger]

Nothing?

Is this just an uninteresting topic?

[Dave Schwartz]

1) Multiple individuals betting on a signal?
2) Are any of them directly wired into the tote system?
3) Who pays the kick back money to those who get kick backs?
4) Do they prefer the co-mingled tote system or offshore books?

1. One corporation. There are no "syndicates."

2. Yes. Costs about $20k per year. ADW usually pays for it.
(Included in the rate.)
To be clear, they do not get any data that you or I can't get. They just get it faster and a little more elegantly.


3. Not sure what a "kick back" would be in this instance.

4. Pure co-mingled tote system. No bookie in his right mind would book $100m in bets from a winning player.

[GMB@BP]

Originally Posted by MPRanger

My question is how do these groups get so much money in at the last tick?

1) Multiple individuals betting on a signal?
2) Are any of them directly wired into the tote system?
3) Who pays the kick back money to those who get kick backs?
4) Do they prefer the co-mingled tote system or offshore books?


If someone gets a kick back, they can convert my overlay
into an underlay but it's still an overlay to them due to the
kick back.

I'm not whining about their existence. I accept it.
I'd just like to understand more about the mechanics of it.


Thanks,

I do believe they are wired in in some fashion, they aint doing it from TVG.

Its another one of those racings dirty little secrets.

[MONEY]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

2. Yes. Costs about $20k per year. ADW usually pays for it.
(Included in the rate.)
To be clear, they do not get any data that you or I can't get. They just get it faster and a little more elegantly.

Last month I bet a P5 at Gulfstream.
After hitting the 1st four legs, I looked at the tote board for the 5th race.
I was surprised to see a high ML odds horse that I thought had no chance was the early favorite.
So I looked at the will pays and found that this same horse had all of the lowest payoffs for each of the horizontals.
The horse won.

What I want about being wired to the tote board is,
Do people that are wire to the tote board know in advance how the later races are being bet?

If they do, then that would be a tremendous advantage over the bettors like me, that have no way of accessing the same information.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by MONEY

Last month I bet a P5 at Gulfstream.
After hitting the 1st four legs, I looked at the tote board for the 5th race.
I was surprised to see a high ML odds horse that I thought had no chance was the early favorite.
So I looked at the will pays and found that this same horse had all of the lowest payoffs for each of the horizontals.
The horse won.

What I want about being wired to the tote board is,
Do people that are wire to the tote board know in advance how the later races are being bet?

If they do, then that would be a tremendous advantage over the bettors like me, that have no way of accessing the same information.

Not to my knowledge.

[Gorrex]

If you do not see odds on later races on your ADW then neither can any CAW. They do not have access to any pool data that you do not.

That said.... Many are able to create their own ML that is more accurate than the public one.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Gorrex

If you do not see odds on later races on your ADW then neither can any CAW. They do not have access to any pool data that you do not.

That said.... Many are able to create their own ML that is more accurate than the public one.

Just so that everyone knows, these guys are some of the absolute best in the industry at giving the LITTLE GUYS as much as the big guys have.

[MPRanger]

Originally Posted by MONEY

What I want about being wired to the tote board is,
Do people that are wire to the tote board know in advance how the later races are being bet?

If they do, then that would be a tremendous advantage over the bettors like me, that have no way of accessing the same information.

If they have a direct tote feed then they are seeing the most current info available.

Tote info is transmitted to simulcast facilities over a land line.
The track's simulcast signal on video is a delayed tote update.
That's because the track receives even it's own tote info from
the totalizing company. Then they put their graphics program over it
and display odds and probables in cycles. The tracks infield toteboard
occasionally will not match it's raw tote feed.

We're talking about 15 to 25 second cycles depending on the track's
program.

When simulcast outlets lose their video feed from the satellite, they put
out a blue screen with just numbers. Those are the latest tote feeds.

But the reason I posed the question is that I want to know more about
the kick backs these big bettors get and who they get it from.
Barry Meadow mentioned it in his new book.

You can get kick backs from the online race books like 8% on straight
bets and more on exotics. Everyone knows this already.
But those bets don't affect the overall tote odds because those
race books are just covering track side odds and aren't co-mingled
with the pools at large.

What I have learned new from this thread is that ADW accounts can get
late bets down. Who is that Churchill Downs for example? Do they pay kick
backs to their big customers?

If big bettors can get a kick back based on large amounts of money bet
then they don't have to be winning horse players to profit. If they have
48% equity, the kick back could put them into a plus EV situation.

But this isn't to whine about it. It's a realty to deal with. Even the best
of the best can't eliminate the variance in racing. It's just that with
a clearer picture different strategies might be deployed to good effect.

[MJC922]

He who bets last gets fixed odds. It's a fair assumption that such an advantage does have a price tag hanging off of it as virtually nobody in business leaves any money on the table these days. Lovers of the game have to make a decision to either keep betting straight into the teeth of that, try to buy into it yourself, or stay out altogether until something changes.

There are always low percentage horizontals, but no matter how good you are it's going to come down to an awful lot of luck. Half that stuff you'd need to live three lifetimes before you knew you really beat it.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by MJC922

He who bets last gets fixed odds. It's a fair assumption that such an advantage does have a price tag hanging off of it as virtually nobody in business leaves any money on the table these days. Lovers of the game have to make a decision to either keep betting straight into the teeth of that, try to buy into it yourself, or stay out altogether until something changes.

There are always low percentage horizontals, but no matter how good you are it's going to come down to an awful lot of luck. Half that stuff you'd need to live three lifetimes before you knew you really beat it.

While your point is valid in theory, they actually don't make the wagering decisions any later than we do. Remember, there is still a human being hitting the bet button.

They're sending their bets in as horses are loading the gate. That is exactly when you and I can send ours in.

Their info does not update THAT fast.

The difference is that they are able to send MORE BETS than we can in that same period of time.

However, I do not send in so many wagers that I NEED the extra time, and I assume that to be true for most of us.

BTW, in my own play, I upload the bets way early but do not fire them until the 1st horse is in the gate.

The REAL BOTTLENECK is video lag.

[JerryBoyle]

Dave and Jason know more about this than I could hope to, but I'd add that ADWs (AmWager especially) provide methods to upload vast number of wagers for anyone who cares to e.g. 1000s+. Anyone w/ programming experience would have an easy go of setting this up, and if one has no programming experience, it'd be cheap to hire a programmer to set something up for you (PM me if this is something you're interested in).

I'd also add that it's impossible even for the last bettor to get "fixed odds", given the tote limitations. The final bet amounts aren't shown until well into the race.

[MPRanger]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

The REAL BOTTLENECK is video lag.

Respectfully, but no. That's not correct.

When you're at the track, look at the horses then look at a video monitor.
They're in sync for all practical purposes. Maybe a step or two lag.

Betting syndicates or whatever you want to call them are no doubt
using a direct tote feed for their odds. That's not difficult to arrange.

BTW, websites claiming to have real time odds are usually more delayed
than the tracks graphics screen.

You can look at the video monitor showing the infield tote board and
sometimes it won't have the same odds showing as what you see on
the video graphics package. And that's on the video being sent out
to the world. The infield tote board are the direct odds from tote
without delay.

The delay is definitely in the odds shown on the video.

But this has nothing to do with the rebates and who is
paying them that I am interested it.

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by MPRanger

Respectfully, but no. That's not correct.

When you're at the track, look at the horses then look at a video monitor.
They're in sync for all practical purposes. Maybe a step or two lag.

We're on different pages here.

I have been speaking about online wagering.

The VIDEO LAG when you are playing online is bad because when I am watching my feed (RTN) in a live play session, many of the people watching me are 20-30 seconds behind.

In other words, when I pull the trigger as the horses are loading) my bets go in. If they wait until they see the 1st horse load, the race has been running for 20+ seconds and they get shut out.

[MJC922]

There most certainly can be coding done for one or more entities which could allow for wagers to be placed at the point when all wagering has been fully aggregated from offsite and on-track. That is, there is a point in time when the odds actually do stop changing, as such, it is entirely known what overlays exist vs these various entities own lines. Their bets can then be allowed as the final wagers. They may well be submitted conditionally hours before the race is run making it 'legal', but my point is those bets are 'allowed' to be submitted last. Yes I am speculating, however if this is ever truly audited is there anyone who doesn't believe you would consistently see the same entities are somehow betting last race after race?