FRANKEL - THE GREATEST (regret)....

[Relwob Owner]

Originally Posted by OntheRail

[YT="Frankly Wow..."]fsSk2S-s1w8[/YT]

Bet they thought they had him today.... .

Thanks for posting that....unreal horse and a good race call as well, I thought.

[classhandicapper]

Not to change the topic, but Excelebration is clearly a very good horse also and he's coming to the US to face Wise Dan - who I regard as one of the better US milers in quite some time. I can't wait!

[RXB]

Originally Posted by Some_One

This year he has defeated the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 10th (X2 tie), 22nd ranked horses in the world, do you really think there is anyone else that has put a record like that in recent years?

Would depend on the definition of "recent." Steve referred to "modern" and while I don't know if Dancing Brave beat a greater quantity of G1 winners--probably not, since he ran 10 races to Frankel's 14-- Dancing Brave definitely ran against (and mostly defeated) better horses. Bering and Shahrastani were a cut above anything that Frankel faced. Acatenango, Shardari and Triptych were other nice runners that he beat, and I'd rate Frankel's best victims at around their level but not up with Bering or Shahrastani.

[UK View]

Originally Posted by RXB

Would depend on the definition of "recent." Steve referred to "modern" and while I don't know if Dancing Brave beat a greater quantity of G1 winners--probably not, since he ran 10 races to Frankel's 14-- Dancing Brave definitely ran against (and mostly defeated) better horses. Bering and Shahrastani were a cut above anything that Frankel faced. Acatenango, Shardari and Triptych were other nice runners that he beat, and I'd rate Frankel's best victims at around their level but not up with Bering or Shahrastani.

Bering 136
Shahrastani 135
Cirrus Des Aigles 133*
Excelebration 133*

*before today

Better? Yes. A cut above? No, not really.

[RXB]

Originally Posted by UK View

Bering 136
Shahrastani 135
Cirrus Des Aigles 133*
Excelebration 133*

*before today

Better? Yes. A cut above? No, not really.

Timeform has always had pretty much the lowest opinion/ratings of that group of 1986 European horses. Most others rate Dancing Brave and the rest of them more highly. So that's the relatively pessimistic end of the range for Bering and Shahrastani.

[UK View]

Originally Posted by depalma113

Sorry, but run him in Dubai and I might buy that he is being tested. Today is not a test. He should crush this field with ease regardless of the going.

And it's quite convienent for you to beleive that he's facing the second best horse in the world. I watched the Arc, there is nothing in this race that even remotely compares to Orferve.

Oh dear

Cirrus Des Aigles IS the 2nd best horse in the World according to the ratings. I am not proclaiming this to be true, just stating the fact.

"run him in Dubai and I might buy that he is being tested".

WHY????

Lets look at Dubai's big 3 races....

Last year's 1-2 in the Sheema Classic were Cirrus Des Aigles and St Nicholas Abbey. Why does he have to travel to Dubai to beat them when he has already done so?

Last year's 3rd in the Dubai World Cup, Planteur, beaten 19l by Frankel when they met.

Last year's runaway Dubai Duty Free winner, Cityscape. Twice 2nd to Excelebration. And Excelebration of course has been beaten 5 times by Frankel!!

So, for Frankel to be "tested" as you put it. He must go to Dubai and beat a load of horses he has already proven superior to?

By your argument to go to Dubai and beat Cirrus Des Aigles IS a test. To run at Ascot and beat Cirrus Des Aigles (on his ideal conditions) is NOT a test.

An argument that I am struggling to fathom.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by RXB

Timeform has always had pretty much the lowest opinion/ratings of that group of 1986 European horses. Most others rate Dancing Brave and the rest of them more highly. So that's the relatively pessimistic end of the range for Bering and Shahrastani.

I'm not sure where you're coming from on this. I looked the the top five Timeform horses for 1986, 1996, 2010 and this year. I don't see any bias against the 1986 horses from this sample.

1986:
Dancing Brave 140
Bering 136
Sharastani 136
Shardari 134
Triptych 131

1996:
Cigar 138
Mark of Esteem 137
Helissio 136
Halling 132
Bosra Sham 132

2010:
Harbinger 140
Workforce 133
Goldikova 133
So You Think 133
Nakayama Festa 132

2012 (prior to today):
Frankel 147
Black Caviar 136
Cirrus des Aigles 133
Excelebration 133
Hay List 132
So You Think 132

[RXB]

I remembered that at the time a whole lot of people felt that Dancing Brave's Arc was as great as any performance that they'd seen, based on the fact that he dusted what was at the time a highly regarded field, and that Timeform had shortchanged him. However, after doing some Google research it does seem that most of the respected present day handicappers are more in line with Timeform's opinion of DB's performance and therefore of the horses that he beat, with some claiming that even Timeform's 140 is too high for Dancing Brave.

So yes, with a little more study and knowledge under my belt I now agree that Timeform's ratings of those 1986 horses are close to the centre of what is probably the most informed range of opinion.

[Humph]

Originally Posted by RXB

I remembered that at the time a whole lot of people felt that Dancing Brave's Arc was as great as any performance that they'd seen, based on the fact that he dusted what was at the time a highly regarded field, and that Timeform had shortchanged him. However, after doing some Google research it does seem that most of the respected present day handicappers are more in line with Timeform's opinion of DB's performance and therefore of the horses that he beat, with some claiming that even Timeform's 140 is too high for Dancing Brave.

So yes, with a little more study and knowledge under my belt I now agree that Timeform's ratings of those 1986 horses are close to the centre of what is probably the most informed range of opinion.

Former senior handicapper Geoffrey Gibbs on DB's official 141 rating : " It was arguable as to what he (Dancing Brave) should be , and in retrospect it was was something we took rather light-heartedly which we shouldn't have done "

[Humph]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Not to change the topic, but Excelebration is clearly a very good horse also and he's coming to the US to face Wise Dan - who I regard as one of the better US milers in quite some time. I can't wait!

yeah , is going to be a race to savour , and'll give us an idea of how the form stacks up , europe against here , seeing as excelebration has spent much of his racing time looking at frankel's arse . ( apparently excelebration has lost only once , on his debut , when frankel hasn't been present.)

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by Humph

yeah , is going to be a race to savour , and'll give us an idea of how the form stacks up , europe against here , seeing as excelebration has spent much of his racing time looking at frankel's arse . ( apparently excelebration has lost only once , on his debut , when frankel hasn't been present.)

Excelebration is rated just three pounds better than Wise Dan by both Timeform and the Racing Post. The former's best races have been on soft going so it remains to be seen whether that three pound differential will be nullified by the green concrete carpet they call a turf course at Santa Anita. I'd say the edge goes to Wise Dan if his form hold up, although if the BC Mile were run at Ascot I think Excelebration would beat him by open lengths.

[horses4courses]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Excelebration is rated just three pounds better than Wise Dan by both Timeform and the Racing Post. The former's best races have been on soft going so it remains to be seen whether that three pound differential will be nullified by the green concrete carpet they call a turf course at Santa Anita. I'd say the edge goes to Wise Dan if his form hold up, although if the BC Mile were run at Ascot I think Excelebration would beat him by open lengths.

There is a link between Wise Dan and Euro form - through Cityscape.
How close is that horse rated to Excelebration and Midnight Cloud?

Wise Dan easily beat Cityscape two races back at Woodbine.
I think Wise Dan will take some beating in the BC Mile, and that the current odds of better than 3-1 in the UK are good value.

Santa Anita will have the turf course watered and in fine order for BC.
The ground will be far from rock hard.

[Steve R]

Originally Posted by horses4courses

There is a link between Wise Dan and Euro form - through Cityscape.
How close is that horse rated to Excelebration and Midnight Cloud?

Wise Dan easily beat Cityscape two races back at Woodbine.
I think Wise Dan will take some beating in the BC Mile, and that the current odds of better than 3-1 in the UK are good value.

Santa Anita will have the turf course watered and in fine order for BC.
The ground will be far from rock hard.

Cityscape was rated at 121 by the Racing Post in the Woodbine Mile (123 in the QEII and a lifetime best of 126) to Wise Dan's 127. Excelebration was rated at 131 in the QEII. Moonlight Cloud's best figure is 127 with a 123 in his last in September. So on current form Cityscape and Moonlight Cloud are both rated 8 pounds below Excelebration. Wise Dan earned a 124 in the Shadwell Turf Mile, so he is 7 pounds behind Excelebration on current form (but only 3 behind in terms of lifetime best).

[Cratos]

At present many athletes achievements are assessed in the moment and bestowed with accolades and greatness that are not necessarily supported by their efforts.

After yesterday’s victory in the Champion Stakes at Ascot by Frankel, there were some if not many calling him the greatest ever.

I agree that he is a great racehorse, but in my opinion the greatest ever should go to the incomparable Secretariat and he has the efforts to back up my claim.

I didn’t reach my decision in a spurious whimsical manner. I carefully reviewed Secretariat’s lifetime past performances to see if there were any evidence to support my claim beyond his exceptional Belmont performance and there was.

Secretariat’s last 4 four lifetime races were nothing short of spectacular and in my opinion the best performances of his career; yes exceeding his record breaking Triple Crown victories.

These last four races occurred in the last 43 days of his racing career and here is what he did:

• On September 15, 1973 he set a world record at 1 1/8 miles against a stellar field which included the previous year’s handicap horse of the year in stable mate, Riva Ridge.

• He came back 14 days later on September 29 on a sloppy track and was beaten by the very good Prove Out; finishing second, but still ran the 1 ½ miles faster at 2:26.55; which is faster than most thoroughbreds ever run the distance in their lifetime.

• But he saved his best for the turf when he was put to the test for the first time on grass in the Man O’ War on October 8 and he came up nothing short of spectacular as the destroyed a very good field of turf runners including Tentam (the previous year turf champion) in a final time of 2:24.8 with a new Belmont turf record for 1 ½ miles.

• But he wasn’t finished because on October 28 he was entered in the Canadian International which included Canada’s turf champion in Kennedy Road and by all accounts he toyed with the field as the covered the 1 5/8 distance at Woodbine in a very good 2:41.8 final time.

Therefore from those races, I calculated what max weight he could tote on his 1200 pound 16.2 hands frame and perform well at 2000 meters (the Champion Stakes distance).

I used a method similar to what Timeform uses in assessing weight to a horse to determine where it rank with other greats on their list and for Secretariat I came up with 154 pounds.

Using the Timeform scale of 1 pound per length at 1 ¼ miles (2000 meters) he would be 7 lengths ahead of Timeform’s current top placeholder, Frankel who is tabbed with 147 pounds by Timeform.

The calculation involved using the laws of physics to calculate his energy quotient at 100,474.1 watts over 2000 meters toting 154 pounds.

Frankel is great, but Secretariat, affectionately called Big Red is the best ever in my opinion on either dirt or grass.

[gracwalk]

Originally Posted by Cratos

At present many athletes achievements are assessed in the moment and bestowed with accolades and greatness that are not necessarily supported by their efforts.

After yesterday’s victory in the Champion Stakes at Ascot by Frankel, there were some if not many calling him the greatest ever.

I agree that he is a great racehorse, but in my opinion the greatest ever should go to the incomparable Secretariat and he has the efforts to back up my claim.

I didn’t reach my decision in a spurious whimsical manner. I carefully reviewed Secretariat’s lifetime past performances to see if there were any evidence to support my claim beyond his exceptional Belmont performance and there was.

Secretariat’s last 4 four lifetime races were nothing short of spectacular and in my opinion the best performances of his career; yes exceeding his record breaking Triple Crown victories.

These last four races occurred in the last 43 days of his racing career and here is what he did:

• On September 15, 1973 he set a world record at 1 1/8 miles against a stellar field which included the previous year’s handicap horse of the year in stable mate, Riva Ridge.

• He came back 14 days later on September 29 on a sloppy track and was beaten by the very good Prove Out; finishing second, but still ran the 1 ½ miles faster at 2:26.55; which is faster than most thoroughbreds ever run the distance in their lifetime.

• But he saved his best for the turf when he was put to the test for the first time on grass in the Man O’ War on October 8 and he came up nothing short of spectacular as the destroyed a very good field of turf runners including Tentam (the previous year turf champion) in a final time of 2:24.8 with a new Belmont turf record for 1 ½ miles.

• But he wasn’t finished because on October 28 he was entered in the Canadian International which included Canada’s turf champion in Kennedy Road and by all accounts he toyed with the field as the covered the 1 5/8 distance at Woodbine in a very good 2:41.8 final time.

Therefore from those races, I calculated what max weight he could tote on his 1200 pound 16.2 hands frame and perform well at 2000 meters (the Champion Stakes distance).

I used a method similar to what Timeform uses in assessing weight to a horse to determine where it rank with other greats on their list and for Secretariat I came up with 154 pounds.

Using the Timeform scale of 1 pound per length at 1 ¼ miles (2000 meters) he would be 7 lengths ahead of Timeform’s current top placeholder, Frankel who is tabbed with 147 pounds by Timeform.

The calculation involved using the laws of physics to calculate his energy quotient at 100,474.1 watts over 2000 meters toting 154 pounds.

Frankel is great, but Secretariat, affectionately called Big Red is the best ever in my opinion on either dirt or grass.

ITA, I would also like to add its how Secretariat, won his races as per Penny Cheney, Secretariat, took control of his own career lol, a horse that understood racing.