"Trainerspeak" on the record

[Grits]

http://www.raceday360.com/2014/03/31...investigation/

My only thought regarding some of what is stated here, and everywhere else, is that I wish we all were as clueless about the care of horses as so many seem to believe. Many of us have no problem, whatsoever, understanding why bar shoes, glue-on shoes, etc, may be needed. Many of us are aware of the need to scope a horse, why its done. Why would anyone find either abusive? I believe these measures fall under "preventive maintenance".

If I don't ever hear the term, "taken out of context" again, it will be too soon. Trainers ignore quite a lot that's in the video--such as the state of Nehro's feet, unnecessary thyroid med, etc.

One can go on ad nauseum, but right now the video--in whatever context you choose--is what it is. DEAL WITH IT. And get on with how in the hell to fix it!

[Tom]

It is time to put everything "in context."
Every point in the video, not just the ones easily dismissed.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

http://www.raceday360.com/2014/03/31...investigation/

My only thought regarding some of what is stated here, and everywhere else, is that I wish we all were as clueless about the care of horses as so many seem to believe. Many of us have no problem, whatsoever, understanding why bar shoes, glue-on shoes, etc, may be needed. Many of us are aware of the need to scope a horse, why its done. Why would anyone find either abusive? I believe these measures fall under "preventive maintenance".

If I don't ever hear the term, "taken out of context" again, it will be too soon. Trainers ignore quite a lot that's in the video--such as the state of Nehro's feet, unnecessary thyroid med, etc.

One can go on ad nauseum, but right now the video--in whatever context you choose--is what it is. DEAL WITH IT. And get on with how in the hell to fix it!

I learned this term the other day- False Dilemna-presenting only two alternatives to a complex situation when in fact there are many more. For example "you don't support our troops so that makes you a traitor" I think this applies to what you are trying to say here. How can we say we agree with the video when so many things were presented out of context? Yes I said it. But we can't say we are ok with it either because of the thyroid thing, etc. the intelligent thing to do is educate the public on some things and make changes to fix the others. But you will never fix people running their mouth to sound cool, it's not gonna happen.

[cj]

Good stuff. I particularly like Ken McPeek admitting it isn't all wine and roses with Lasix. There are definite downsides to it.

[greengorilla]

Originally Posted by cj

Good stuff. I particularly like Ken McPeek admitting it isn't all wine and roses with Lasix. There are definite downsides to it.

The crazy thing about Lasix is just as many jockeys take it to lose weight as horses do to stop bleeding. I know several severly arthritic backstretch workers that have told me they have used bute before.

[Grits]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I learned this term the other day- False Dilemna-presenting only two alternatives to a complex situation when in fact there are many more. For example "you don't support our troops so that makes you a traitor" I think this applies to what you are trying to say here. How can we say we agree with the video when so many things were presented out of context? Yes I said it. But we can't say we are ok with it either because of the thyroid thing, etc. the intelligent thing to do is educate the public on some things and make changes to fix the others. But you will never fix people running their mouth to sound cool, it's not gonna happen.

Delaware, this man's language is of no consequence whatsoever to me; vulgarity is no substitute for intelligence or wit. What else can I say? His problem, not mine. I hate it for him.

The horses, on the other hand, mean something to all of us. I have enough knowledge to understand that there are drugs wrongly put into horses everyday. I have enough knowledge to understand that, yes, there are good trainers. Barns who conduct their operations well.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I know better. But I also can fully recognize a problem when one exists.

While the state of Thoroughbred racing remains in great decline, or as many have come to believe, on life support. Time is NOT on our side, at this point. Education takes time, and a lot of it. Let's take that path, and see how things work out for the next five years. How would you like to start? Perhaps seminars for fans, bettors, and would be owners, complete with video and trainer narrative?

However, you can take an alternative path. You can clean up this sport with a governing body and standardized rules that every trainer has to abide by. If he/she doesn't, sorry, they have no business working with these animals. Therefore, look for employment elsewhere. Or if fined, get kicked out of it. So yes, maybe this is, as you note, a false dilemma. But as bettors and fans, we're accustomed to a good deal that has been carried out, not only as wrong, but too, as FALSE. Tracks need those skyrocketing takeouts!

When all is settled it comes down to this, Delaware. If your practices are remotely questionable ... be it administration of lasix, bute, thyrozine, linaments, shock treatments, accupunture, etc. If you haven't the knowledge of their safety or their withdrawal times, so as to cause your horses to race while not in their best form, placing them at risk? I don't want you in this sport. And, I think, maybe, neither do most of the gentlemen here that wager on it everyday.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

Delaware, this man's language is of no consequence whatsoever to me; vulgarity is no substitute for intelligence or wit. What else can I say? His problem, not mine. I hate it for him.

The horses, on the other hand, mean something to all of us. I have enough knowledge to understand that there are drugs wrongly put into horses everyday. I have enough knowledge to understand that, yes, there are good trainers. Barns who conduct their operations well.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I know better. But I also can fully recognize a problem when one exists.

While the state of Thoroughbred racing remains in great decline, or as many have come to believe, on life support. Time is NOT on our side, at this point. Education takes time, and a lot of it. Let's take that path, and see how things work out for the next five years. How would you like to start? Perhaps seminars for fans, bettors, and would be owners, complete with video and trainer narrative?

However, you can take an alternative path. You can clean up this sport with a governing body and standardized rules that every trainer has to abide by. If he/she doesn't, sorry, they have no business working with these animals. Therefore, look for employment elsewhere. Or if fined, get kicked out of it. So yes, maybe this is, as you note, a false dilemma. But as bettors and fans, we're accustomed to a good deal that has been carried out, not only as wrong, but too, as FALSE. Tracks need those skyrocketing takeouts!

When all is settled it comes down to this, Delaware. If your practices are remotely questionable ... be it administration of lasix, bute, thyrozine, linaments, shock treatments, accupunture, etc. If you haven't the knowledge of their safety or their withdrawal times, so as to cause your horses to race while not in their best form, placing them at risk? I don't want you in this sport. And, I think, maybe, neither do most of the gentlemen here that wager on it everyday.

Ok , I'll start with educating you. We already have governing bodies and the standardization of drug rules are almost complete. You can see here http://www.rmtcnet.com/resources/RMT...ril%202013.pdf. Even before this I can't think of any jurisdiction allowed anything to kill pain on race day. These new rules push aback some therapeutic medication whose long term use could negatively effect the horse. (Clenbuterol).

Regarding shockwave , this is a legitimate therapy in horses. When regulators realized it had a side effect of killing pain they regulated it. Your horse has to be identified by the state vet and goes on a list that restricts when it can run. In the video , blasi makes no mention that they shockwave horses, he is just explaining what it is.

So, please be specific, what rule do you think is missing here? Tell me exactly what the industry is missed and I will respond to you. What do you see I'm this video that you know for a fact that is being done to the detriment if the horse ?

You can't regulate how people talk about horses, it's how you are raised. There actually are rules around how you act and you can be fined for running your mouth but someone has to see you. The industry also has to figure out how to deal with the thyroid medication thing as it is naturally in the horse.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

So, please be specific, what rule do you think is missing here? Tell me exactly what the industry is missed and I will respond to you. What do you see I'm this video that you know for a fact that is being done to the detriment if the horse ?

Easy one, how about giving drugs for competitive reasons, not because horses need them, such as thyrozine?

We know Baffert did it, and then it is mentioned again in the video. It was done to increase metabolism, not any medical reason. How is that acceptable and not against the rules? That is the definition of a performance enhancer.

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by cj

Easy one, how about giving drugs for competitive reasons, not because horses need them, such as thyrozine?

We know Baffert did it, and then it is mentioned again in the video. It was done to increase metabolism, not any medical reason. How is that acceptable and not against the rules? That is the definition of a performance enhancer.

If you read my post thoroughly you will see that I mention this as a problem. Although there are rules against medications that alter the horses systems or act as a stimulant or depressant, thyroid medication is not testable and may (although the chances are slim) be necessary if the horse is hypothyroid. This is why clenbuterol has been phased out as although it has a legitimate purpose, it was being abused. The difference is clenbuterol is a drug that is detectable for weeks, thyro-l is not. It is identical to what is produced by the thyroid gland. So. Commissions are going to have to see how to approach this. Until Baffert, I don't think anyone knew this was being done. Maybe they hired the same toxicologist. This is why people are honing in on the ethics of vets and why this would be prescribed without diagnosis.

I for one do not want to have to get a diagnosis every time I want to use a prescription drug. I may want to give a NSAID here and there or standard antibiotics for a snotty nose without going through red tape. However, I think it would be justified to mandate a diagnosis via blood test for every horse on thyro l for any horse receiving it.

But don't make it seem that the track is a lawless place with no rules. The rules exist and are very strict. But this is a moving target, some guys are constantly looking for an edge and this is the latest thing. The rmtc works to try to stay ahead of these things and in this case they weren't. Short of hiring a psychic I don't know what they could have done.

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by cj

Good stuff. I particularly like Ken McPeek admitting it isn't all wine and roses with Lasix. There are definite downsides to it.

We have a 3 y/o who is allergic to bute we found out the hard way he got the thumps.

[Grits]

Delaware, I love horses and I love thoroughbred racing. I've been reading for many years about drugs in racing. And with each year, I'm sorry, it doesn't become less of a problem. To me, it becomes apparent that drugs are a greater problem.

I'm not one who needs to be educated. Actually, I can probably assist in educating because if I'm about anything--its detail. Please, realize, you are not at Twitter, you are not at Face Book. These gentlemen know more than those who spend their time at either. They can spot a form reversal in less time than it takes to turn to page 2 of today's DRF.

Say what you will about the rules set by the RMTC, but this is a large number, and it doesn't seem to be consoling many of us when we read the following:

November 2012: The RMTC Board approves a limited list of therapeutic medications that are allowed to be present in a horse on race day. This therapeutic medication list is based upon recommendations from the American Association of Equine Practitioners. By permitting these 24 medications, the RMTC has recommended that the presence of any other medications is prohibited in post race sampling.

Included in the first few pages (beginning on page 3) of this 61 page document is the list of those 24 drugs? Would this be correct? ... Delaware, I'm gonna tell ya like a friend, 24 is a pretty large number of permitted meds.

http://www.ntra.com/media/8230584/Ex...Regulators.pdf

The Q&A is helpful, and at times, revealing of a mindset by veterinarians. This remains a problem.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_faq.asp

Question: Are the procedures for testing racehorses the same, regardless of state and regardless of breed of horse?
Dr. Benson: No. Procedures vary widely from state to state and usually depend on the level of funding a state has for the testing budget.

Now, on to those dead horses in Baffert's barn and the CHRB's investigation. Its not the NYTimes or PETA. Its a blog piece written in 2 parts including the many problems of drugs in race horses including thyroxine and others with links to documented findings.

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2...effect-part-1/

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2...effect-part-2/

There may be something, somewhere, in all of this that will help to bring about better communication between all parties and organizations.

[stuball]

As an industry they have to come down hard -crushingly so - on all proven cheaters....of course to punish them for their actions...but also to relieve the pressure on the non cheaters to do it to remain competitive...I can not imagine
how some resist the pressure to cheat when others do it and get away clean or with a silly little naughty naughty. stables should be limited in how many horses they can have in training at a track..track suits won't come down on them because then there are short fields..well limit them I say....let others in that will follow the rules...very seldom I post because it seems to be a futile attempt at nothing....

Stuball

[Delawaretrainer]

Originally Posted by Grits

Delaware, I love horses and I love thoroughbred racing. I've been reading for many years about drugs in racing. And with each year, I'm sorry, it doesn't become less of a problem. To me, it becomes apparent that drugs are a greater problem.

I'm not one who needs to be educated. Actually, I can probably assist in educating because if I'm about anything--its detail. Please, realize, you are not at Twitter, you are not at Face Book. These gentlemen know more than those who spend their time at either. They can spot a form reversal in less time than it takes to turn to page 2 of today's DRF.

Say what you will about the rules set by the RMTC, but this is a large number, and it doesn't seem to be consoling many of us when we read the following:



Included in the first few pages (beginning on page 3) of this 61 page document is the list of those 24 drugs? Would this be correct? ... Delaware, I'm gonna tell ya like a friend, 24 is a pretty large number of permitted meds.

http://www.ntra.com/media/8230584/Ex...Regulators.pdf

The Q&A is helpful, and at times, revealing of a mindset by veterinarians. This remains a problem.

http://www.rmtcnet.com/content_faq.asp


Now, on to those dead horses in Baffert's barn and the CHRB's investigation. Its not the NYTimes or PETA. Its a blog piece written in 2 parts including the many problems of drugs in race horses including thyroxine and others with links to documented findings.

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2...effect-part-1/

http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2...effect-part-2/

There may be something, somewhere, in all of this that will help to bring about better communication between all parties and organizations.

Ok, did you read the list of medications? Do you know what they are? None of them are in the list because they are to have any effect on raceday with the exception of LASIx. It can also be argued that joint injections can help horses for months. The 24 drugs can be found in a post race sample but not in a concentration that would effect pain or performance on race day. The list includes NSAIDs, tranquilizers, muscle relaxers, etc. that way, you can treat horses that tie up, tranq horses that need stitches, block horses for diagnostics, etc which are all things that will need to be done in the life of an average racing stable. Thresholds are necessary as these meds may be detectable for weeks after administration, long after they have any effects. As testing continues to get more sophisticated, the limit of detection will be smaller, hence the thresholds which should be constant.

If any argument has been made in the compilation of this list it is "why just 24?". Let me give you an example why. There are many medications for ulcers including ranitidine, sucralfate, cimetidine and omeprazole. But only one is on the list, the one that cost over $30 per day. Cheaper alternatives can cost a couple of dollars per day. So you can imagine that horseman might find the list limiting when attempting to take care of their horses. Yet, if people like you hear a horseman say they need to expand the list you accuse them of being drug dependent amongst other things. In reality we know we can keep more horses ulcer free if the cheaper options were allowed. That list may expand based upon what I have explained so don't be shocked. It is an attempt at uniformity so horseman can stay within the rules, not cheat.

You also mention differences in labs...do you know that laboratory accreditation is part of the adoption of the rules? Some jurisdictions have changed who they contract to comply. So I'm not sure what you point is on that.

Stop worrying about bute, ulcer medicine etc. the people cheating are not using anything on this list. They are using things that are eliminated by race time. So wasting your time fretting about this list improves nothing in the sport.

Yes, the thyro l has to be dealt with and anything else naturally occurring in the horses body that changes metabolism. Think of a way to police this and recommend it to the rmtc if you have any ideas.

I don't have more time to teach you under what innocent circumstances the 24. Meds may be used. I suggest you speak to your vet.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer

I for one do not want to have to get a diagnosis every time I want to use a prescription drug.

Then you should have went to veterinary school I guess. I mean really, I don't want to go to the doctor every time I need a prescription, but I do.

[CryingForTheHorses]

Any horse can be put on lasix WITHOUT being scoped to really see if he needs it,There is a form the vets have letting you do this,So IMO lasix is highly abused in horses..My horse get the min allowed.Thyroid meds are also abused as when you take a blood the first thing a vet will tell you is,Let me check his thyroid...This is a powder that you give with his feed..Its the norm (Florida) to give your horse banamine 48 hours and the norm to give them bute 24 hours before a race..They have several drugs to help with any joint problems besides injecting a joint if that what you want to do,These drugs are azuim to help suckup any pressure in the joints and they also have a drug called Vetalog which also helps.Lots of vets have gone to using Vetalog to inject joints because its much easier on the joints then cortizone.Injecting a horse joints for maitenince is no different then a hockey player getting ready for the game.It becomes a problem when they are injected each and every race..Most injections will last 30 days.Horses do get fluid buildup in their joints from the contant pounding as they run..You will even find young horses with this.Mostly if you pickup a horses leg and flex his ankle,He will either flinch in pain or you wont get any response.Flinching in pain tells you he needs eith rest or you have to inject his ankles or knees or stifles or hocks.Injecting with steroids (cortizone) will ruin the bursa sack in the ankle and cause the ankles to grow.Too much cortizone will weaken the bone joint and we all know what happens then.Young horse with sore joints can be injected with Hylaronic acid and a bit of cortizone mixed with genisin to avoid any infection and then turn them out to heal.They do have a lot of old school methods besides injecting to help with this problem like a light blister,ice tubs etc.The world of racing has gotten away with old school methods and its now a vets world.Go on the backside of GP in the morning,They have more vets there then horseman.I do agree there needs to be some sort of regulation and tougher testing.You can do everything within the rules of racing to win a race but there are always guys using something and we have to compete against them.