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Old 05-26-2015, 04:42 PM   #19321
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Yeah, and it's Roman Catholic not Protstant or the product of the Reformation.

1483. Birth of Luther, November 10.
1509 Birth of Calvin. July 10.

Gutenberg invented the printing press in 1445 before your buddies even walked on the planet. The Italian Renaissance (1330-1550) with roots further back was the deciding factor. Not the Reformation. If anything as I told you it was the Catholic church initially influencing Gutenberg to print and mass produce in 1440 indulgences -- printed slips of paper sold by the Catholic Church.

The first finished copies of the bible that Gutenberg printed were available in 1454 or 1455. Must have been Roman Catholic Church bibles.

When did Luther start preaching and when was the Protestant dogma formalized? I thought it was considered to have begun in 1517 when Luther published The Ninety-Five Theses.
But it was the Reformation that inspired the printing of the Word of God -- to be distributed to the masses -- something the RCC loathed since official ecclesiastical policy was that only the elite clergy could properly understand and interpret scripture to the laity.
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Old 05-26-2015, 04:53 PM   #19322
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Oh...speaking of the devil, listen to the evil spirit of ecumenicalism:

Pope Francis Says the Devil Is Keeping Evangelicals and Catholics Divided: 'We Are One; It Is He Who's Persecuting Christians Today'

http://www.christianpost.com/news/po...-today-139564/

The megabytes of irony here is that this kind of "division" is sanctioned in God's Word! El Papa really needs to brush up on his bible.
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:10 PM   #19323
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But it was the Reformation that inspired the printing of the Word of God -- to be distributed to the masses -- something the RCC loathed since official ecclesiastical policy was that only the elite clergy could properly understand and interpret scripture to the laity.


You have totally and willfully ignored well known historical truths and what everyone here has been telling you.

Please support ANY of your above statements.
You can not. And do not pull a biblical passage out of your but in typical boxcarian double talk-eese fashion.
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Old 05-27-2015, 09:43 AM   #19324
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Originally Posted by hcap
The Qumran was side divergence Greyfox's Islamophobia hiccuped into this discussion.
Are you thick or sick hcap?

I clearly told you that I am not Islamophobic but reject that religion for intellectual reasons alone including the oppression of women.
Previously I thought rather highly of your arguments.
I'll reevaluate that opinion with the continued stooping to labeling that you seem to be engaging in.
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:24 PM   #19325
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Are you thick or sick hcap?
A few posts back you also told me to think. Kinda' presumptuous aren't you?

From my point of view your opinion of Islam is that of a cafeteria semi-intellectual eating primarily at the Pam Gellar cafe. You reuse to see the rest of the menu of mainstream Muslims and the other restaurants in the Muslim world----and forsake the higher ideals represented by the more reflective interpretations such as Sufism for the extremist terrorists' point of view and how mostly western right wing propaganda has pigeon holed Islam as a primitive violent world religion. The essence of Islam is not what Pam Gellar thinks.

I get the a similar feeling about you and Christianity and the other Abrahamic and eastern traditions. Very little curiosity towards the symbolic allegoric and esoteric. I accept esoteric interpretations are not everyone's cup of tea but at least the symbolic and allegorical are vital threads running thru almost all religions, and a rather large portion of the Muslim world has beliefs that embrace the non-literal and symbolic.

And BTW it is a vital process required in many fields of thought to chose and discern between the various divisions and subdivisions in order to judge and find the most sensible understandings of whatever that field of study is. I believe you have made a distinction between yourself and other conservatives on this board. Are you a cafeteria conservative? And just like there are major differences between socialists, communists and American liberals, there are countless varieties of religious belief. I am glad you think boxcar is not a in your own words a "cafeteria Christian". In addition to his rather extreme literal spin, he is a member of one of dozens of divisions of Christianity who already have historically proudly and separately chosen............

...one from group A and 2 from group B
Discrimination is the key. No matter your lame opinion of dining in cafeterias.

Are you sick or thick?
Think Greyfox
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Old 05-27-2015, 12:35 PM   #19326
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how mostly western right wing propaganda has pigeon holed Islam as a primitive violent world religion.
You don't get it.
You are espousing the value of identifying esoteric features of a religion which oppresses women, wants to vanquish infidels, and was started by a pedophile who married a nine year old girl.
I'm sure that the Angel Gabriel told him in a cave that was an okay thing to do.
If you get something out of that, good on you.
I get diddly-squat from that religion that is helpful to my spiritual growth.
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Old 05-27-2015, 01:00 PM   #19327
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how mostly western right wing propaganda has pigeon holed Islam as a primitive violent world religion.
Western right wing propaganda pigeon holed Islam?

Just a couple of examples how Islam nominated itself as being primitive and violent, with nothing due to right wing politics.

1. Salman Rushdie
In 1988 Salman Rushdie had his book "The Satanic Verses" published.
Ayatollah Kohmeini an Iranian Holy man issued a Fatwa on his life.
Rushdie had to go into hiding for years.

2. Jerry Falwell
In 2002 Jerry Falwell a Southern Baptist Minister said on "60 Minutes"
"I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war."
Later that week a Muslim Holy man Mohsen Mojtahed Shabestari, issued a Fatwa calling for Falwell to be killed.

That sort of crap has nothing to do with any right wing propaganda machine.
Those were supposedly devout spiritual holy leaders from Islam issuing those fatwas.
Of course, others have fatwas on them too.
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Old 05-27-2015, 04:38 PM   #19328
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A few posts back you also told me to think. Kinda' presumptuous aren't you?

From my point of view your opinion of Islam is that of a cafeteria semi-intellectual eating primarily at the Pam Gellar cafe. You reuse to see the rest of the menu of mainstream Muslims and the other restaurants in the Muslim world----and forsake the higher ideals represented by the more reflective interpretations such as Sufism for the extremist terrorists' point of view and how mostly western right wing propaganda has pigeon holed Islam as a primitive violent world religion. The essence of Islam is not what Pam Gellar thinks.

I get the a similar feeling about you and Christianity and the other Abrahamic and eastern traditions. Very little curiosity towards the symbolic allegoric and esoteric. I accept esoteric interpretations are not everyone's cup of tea but at least the symbolic and allegorical are vital threads running thru almost all religions, and a rather large portion of the Muslim world has beliefs that embrace the non-literal and symbolic.
Why can't both be embraced? Why does it have to be one or the other? The vital threads of allegory do not run through the bible, which again makes scripture unique. Allegory has been replaced by a medium of interpretation no other religion employs to the best of my knowledge -- Typology. Typology gives the best of both worlds -- the literal in the OT that points to greater and more profound spiritual truth in the NT. The OT literal people, places or events are the types or shadows or copies that point the to the spiritual substances or antitypes in the New.
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Old 05-27-2015, 04:43 PM   #19329
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You have totally and willfully ignored well known historical truths and what everyone here has been telling you.

Please support ANY of your above statements.
You can not. And do not pull a biblical passage out of your but in typical boxcarian double talk-eese fashion.
Ask ShowMe. The RCC does not hold to the doctrine of sola scriptura. So, why would the Roman Church want to put the scriptures into the hands of the masses? The RCC has always been in the business of keeping the masses as ignorant as possible by spoon-feeding them the poison of man-made religious traditions.

And you tell Foxy to "think"!?
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:05 AM   #19330
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Originally Posted by Greyfox
Western right wing propaganda pigeon holed Islam?

Just a couple of examples how Islam nominated itself as being primitive and violent, with nothing due to right wing politics.

1. Salman Rushdie
In 1988 Salman Rushdie had his book "The Satanic Verses" published.
Ayatollah Kohmeini an Iranian Holy man issued a Fatwa on his life.
Rushdie had to go into hiding for years.

2. Jerry Falwell
In 2002 Jerry Falwell a Southern Baptist Minister said on "60 Minutes"
"I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war."
Later that week a Muslim Holy man Mohsen Mojtahed Shabestari, issued a Fatwa calling for Falwell to be killed.

That sort of crap has nothing to do with any right wing propaganda machine.
Those were supposedly devout spiritual holy leaders from Islam issuing those fatwas.
Of course, others have fatwas on them too.
Salman Rushdie was indeed considered an infidel by many Muslims and as has happened frequently a reaction against free speech was carried to absurd levels. I do not condone this, and agree that the reaction of mostly LITERAL minded religious Muslims is a continuing problem.

Jerry Falwell? Is not worth commenting on.

http://originalblessing.ning.com/pro...ties-committed

Christian Atrocities Committed Against Non-Christian Peoples

"Old and New Testament scriptures have been misinterpreted by Christians, causing the Christian religion to become an imperialistic war-mongering religion, whose adherents have believed that they were instructed by God to invade the homelands of non-Christian peoples, take possession of their lands and resources, annihilate many of the indigenous inhabitants as well as subjugate and exploit the remaining innocent indigenous peoples.

The indigenous peoples of the Americas, Australia, and New Zealand bear a tragic witness to what Christian nations have done, as have also the indigenous peoples of Africa and Asia."


...In a best-selling book about the history of the American West, Theodore Roosevelt wrote: "Many of the best of the backwoodsmen were Bible-readers. They looked at their foes as the Hebrew prophets looked at the enemies of Israel. What were the abominations because of which the Canaanites were destroyed before Joshua, when compared with the abominations of the red savages whose lands they, another chosen people, should in their turn inherit?"

Yes, most of the atrocities commuted by Christians against native peoples, opposing sects within Christianity, and the Jews----happened before western modernization. The growth of HUMANISM which as I pointed out was in part due to the Renaissance, and ensuing political and industrial changes brought the west out of a religious world view. However relatively recent genocides have still been committed in the name of Christianity. History ebbs and flows and the Islamic world has faltered recently not because literal Koran reading Islam is itself any more violent than literal biblical Christianity. Both taken on the surface are mixes of violence and higher ideals. But history has dealt one a more fortunate hand and the other an older more archaic still religious dominated hand. The west moved towards secularism and not so much the Islamic world.
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:28 AM   #19331
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The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were .... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the Church ...
Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933

Without centuries of Christian anti-Semitism, Hitler's passionate hatred would never have been so fervently echoed.
Robert Runcie (1921-2000), Archbishop of Canterbury (1980-1991)

.................................................. ..........................

http://www.hearnow.org/caljp.html


A Calendar of Jewish Persecution
70 A.D. Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.
115 Rebellion of the Jews in Mesopotania, Egypt, Cyrene and Cyprus. Jews and Romans inflicted many barbaric atrocities on each other, causing the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews.
132-35 The Bar Kochba rebellion (Bar Kochba was a false Messiah). Caused the death of 500,000 Jews; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity.
135 Roman Emperor Hadrian commenced his persecution of the Jews. Jerusalem established as a pagan city. Erection of a Jupiter temple on the temple mountain (Moriah) and a temple to Venus on Golgotha. Jews were forbidden to practice circumcision, the reading of the Law, eating of unleavened bread at Passover or any Jewish festival. Infringement of this edict brought the death penalty.
315 Constantine the Great established "Christianity" as the State religion throughout the Roman Empire; issued many anti-Jewish laws.
379-95 Theodosius the Great expelled Jews from any official gate position or place of honor. Permitted the destruction of their synagogues if by so doing, it served a religious purpose.
613 Persecution of the Jews in Spain. All Jews who refused to be baptized had to leave the country. A few years later the remaining Jews were dispossessed, declared as slaves and given to pious "Christians" of position. All children 7 years or over were taken from their parents and given to receive a "Christian" education.
1096 Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom.
1121 Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ.
1130 The Jews of London had to pay compensation of 1 million marks for allegedly killing a sick man.
1146-47 Renewed persecution of the Jews in Germany at the beginning of the Second Crusade. The French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews as an introduction to the Second Crusade. It was only because of the intervention of Emperor Conrad who declared Nuerenberg and a small fortress as places of refuge for the Jews, and that of Abbot Bernard of Clairvaux, that the result was not quite as devastating as at the time of the First Crusade.
1181 French King Philip banished the Jews from his domain. They were permitted to sell all movable possessions, but the immovable such as land and houses reverted to the king. Seven years later he called the Jews back.
1189 At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks.
1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.
1290 Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country.
1298 Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed.
1306 King Philip the Fair banished the Jews from France. 100,000 Jews left the country.
1320 In France, 40,000 shepherds dedicated themselves for the Shepherd Crusade to free Palestine from the Moslems. Under the influence of criminals and land speculators, they destroyed 120 Jewish communities.
1321 Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake.
1348 Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes.
1370 Jews were blamed for having defiled the "Host" (wafer used in the Mass) in Brabant. The accused were burned alive. Again, all Jews were banned from Flanders and until the year 1820, every 15 years a feast was kept to celebrate the event.
1391 Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered.
1394 Second banishment of Jews from France.
1453 The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.
1478 The Spanish inquisition directed against the Jews.
1492 The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome.
1497 Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. King Manuel, generally friendly to the Jews, under pressure from Spain instigated forced baptism to keep the Jews. 20,000 Jews desired to leave the country. Many were ultimately declared slaves.
1516 First Ghetto established in Venice.
1540 Banishment of Jews from Naples and 10 years later, from Genoa and Venice.
1794 Restriction of Jews in Russia, Jewish men were forced to serve 25 years in the Russian military. Many hundreds of thousands of Jews left Russia.
1846-78 All former restriction, against the Jews in the Vatican State were re-inforced by Pope Pius IX.
1903 Renewed restrictions of Jews in Russia. Frequent pogroms (massacres); general impoverishment of Russian Jewry.
1933 Commencement of persecution of Jews in Hitler Germany. Inception of the systematic destruction of 6,000,000 Jews throughout Nazi-occupied Europe.
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:33 AM   #19332
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http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Native_...e_.22Savage.22

Native Americans and Christianity

Native Americans and Christianity have a history that dates to the the arrival of the first European explorers. This history is marked by genocide, cultural destruction, domination and resistance.

Much of the destruction was done for land, politics, and power, but a significant part of it was done for religious reasons, as Christians embarked on a world-wide, conversion-by-the-sword "re-education" scheme.

Christian views towards the "Savage"

Amongst the earliest harshest remarks about the Native Americans came from Christian sects, such as the Puritans, who saw themselves as those who would lead Native Americans on the true path to God.[11] Through out the sixteenth century to the American Revolution, the goal of English missionaries was to reduce the Native Americans from savagery to “civility.”[12] The quickest way to do this was to rid the world of the savage, either by conversion or death. For the Puritan settlers, the entire planet already is their home and property. The Puritans had a strong belief that they were the true followers of God, and the New World was God’s garden given to the Puritans. This can be seen by the words of John Winthrop, 1629: “...the whole earth is the Lord's garden, and he hath given it to the sons of Adam to be tilled and improved by them. Why then should we stand starving here for the places of habitation, (many men spending as much labor and cost to recover or keep sometimes an acre or two of lands as would procure him many hundreds of acres, as good or better, in another place,) and in the mean time suffer whole countries, as profitable for the use of man, to lie waste without any improvement.”[13] Another example, John Winthrop wrote to an English friend about the earlier arrival of the Pilgrims who spread diseases amongst the local Natives “the natives are neere all dead of the smalle Poxe, so as the Lord hathe cleared our title to what we posses.”
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:43 AM   #19333
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Salman Rushdie was indeed considered an infidel by many Muslims and as has happened frequently a reaction against free speech was carried to absurd levels. I do not condone this, and agree that the reaction of mostly LITERAL minded religious Muslims is a continuing problem.
Thank you for agreeing on that.

I'm not going to be making any more comments on Islam out of concern for the owner of this message board.
Fortunately we can speak freely about most other religions without the threats that discussion of Islam can bring about.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:00 AM   #19334
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P.S.
I should have added that neither the owner of the board nor any of the moderators tried to influence that decision.
I just do not want to endanger anyone with comments, while true, that could cause any incendiary reactions among followers of that religion as has been known to happen.
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Old 05-28-2015, 10:38 AM   #19335
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hcap's posts above and my recent comments simply support those who believe that all organized religions have been the major source of historical conflicts, violence, and associated deaths, which are continuing even today throughout the world.
Of course, it can also be argued the various religions have been simply a mask to conceal greed and needs for dominance that men leading many nations have hidden behind.
So is the problem religion per se, or those who use religion to manipulate others to fulfill their needs?
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