Newbie Handicapper with a online poker background. Lot of questions - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

thew92 · 06-10-2011, 12:38 AM

Hello Everyone I am new to Horseracing handicapping and need to know where to start. Forgive me if I am asking some dumb question.

I was a online poker player and if you haven’t heard the US DoJ shut down the major sites. So now I am going to try to get into Horseracing handicapping. There are a few comparisons I am going to try and make with this.

1. Bankroll management: I was a limit hold’em player and there you should aways have at least 350 Big Bet for the limits you play as to withstand the swings in the game. Is there a rule of thumb about how much you should bet on a race as far as your Bank-Roll goes?

2. Rake/Takeout: What is the avg. takeout pure race? Or where do I go to see how much is taken out?

3. Rakeback/Rebate: In poker some sites gave you rack back if you knew where to get it and other had a VIP system that was equal to rake back. Do any of the American ran sites offer any kind of rebate system or a VIP equivalent? (I am not interested in betting in offshore sites after what has happen to the online poker industry.)

4. Coaching Sites – In poker there are coaching sites out there that teach you how to play poker and so on. Like Card Runners and Deuces Cracked. They also had one on one coaching available. Is there anything similar in the horseracing world?

5. Software – In poker I had PT3 and HEM to work with I see all kind of software avilible for horseracing and some of them seem a little pricey to me.

6. Books – What books would you recommend reading for a beginner?

7. Sucker Bets – Any time there is gambling a casino will offer beginners sucker bet are there any in horseracing that you would recommend I stay away from?

8. When betting on horses I see about 20 tracks running races every day what track are the most popular and have the best horse and simulcast? I really like the way Churchill Downs does their simulcast.

9. Who are all the American ran online sites out there and should I open an account with all of them just to chase the sign-up bonus?

benzer · 06-10-2011, 01:00 AM

I don't want to burst any bubbles but that is going to be a big transition from poker to horse racing.

Start reading the many posts on this site on handicapping a horse race.

Ask questions when needed and someone will probably try to help you. Great people here, just don't try to trick, or abuse their generosity in any way.

thew92 · 06-10-2011, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benzer

I don't want to burst any bubbles but that is going to be a big transition from poker to horse racing.

I have no doubt that this will be hard transition. I found that in poker it took hard work to become a winning player. I expect there will be a lot of work to do to become a winning handicapper. I just need a place to start.

dav4463 · 06-10-2011, 01:24 AM

Go to a track and watch live racing and fall in love with the sport. Note the conditions of each race and watch it knowing what level of horse you are watching and knowing what purse they are trying to win. Learn what the trainers and owners are trying to do.

Smell the horse poop! Have fun first; then learn how to bet.

benzer · 06-10-2011, 01:24 AM

This is the best place to start. If you want more something more specific let me know. Don't lose your skills in the poker arena the current bull**** might get reversed.

benzer · 06-10-2011, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dav4463

Smell the horse poop! Have fun first; then learn how to bet.

This is a must do.

thew92 · 06-10-2011, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dav4463

Go to a track and watch live racing and fall in love with the sport. Note the conditions of each race and watch it knowing what level of horse you are watching and knowing what purse they are trying to win. Learn what the trainers and owners are trying to do.

Smell the horse poop! Have fun first; then learn how to bet.

I have been to lone star park a few time and loved it. But sometimes its hard for me to get out there.

Also David are you a Mean Green fan just noticed your location I went to school there from 1998-2001.

HoofedInTheChest · 06-10-2011, 01:30 AM

Ive only been at this for a year or so but i can help you out, i'm sure the veteran players on here will be happy to chime in as well.

1 - I would practice at first, there is a learning curve you must go through before you get the feel for it. You will burn through money if you go at it uneducated. If you do make some bets i would start with $2 bets. You have to learn how to handicap as well as learn how to bet, they are two different animals.
2 - http://www.horseplayersassociation.o...kname2010.html
3 - You can get rebates but you have to be betting large amounts, others on here can explain further.
4 - You found it right here.
5 - There is expensive software and inexpensive software, as well there is free software that members of this board have created, read through the threads you will figure it out pretty quick.
6 - Handicapping 101 by Brad Free
Beyer on Speed by Andrew Beyer
Picking Winners by Andrew Beyer
There are a ton of others to pick from, look online for the books, you wont find them in book stores.
7 - There all sucker bets......... just kidding.
8 - It's a thing you have to feel out, try different tracks and see what you like, some tracks i can't make money at, and some i can.
9 - I'm Canadian so i can't help you with that.

benzer · 06-10-2011, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoofedInTheChest

Ive only been at this for a year or so but i can help you out, i'm sure the veteran players on here will be happy to chime in as well.

1 - I would practice at first, there is a learning curve you must go through before you get the feel for it. You will burn through money if you go at it uneducated. If you do make some bets i would start with $2 bets. You have to learn how to handicap as well as learn how to bet, they are two different animals.
2 - http://www.horseplayersassociation.o...kname2010.html
3 - You can get rebates but you have to be betting large amounts, others on here can explain further.
4 - You found it right here.
5 - There is expensive software and inexpensive software, as well there is free software that members of this board have created, read through the threads you will figure it out pretty quick.
6 - Handicapping 101 by Brad Free
Beyer on Speed by Andrew Beyer
Picking Winners by Andrew Beyer
There are a ton of others to pick from, look online for the books, you wont find them in book stores.
7 - There all sucker bets......... just kidding.
8 - It's a thing you have to feel out, try different tracks and see what you like, some tracks i can't make money at, and some i can.
9 - I'm Canadian so i can't help you with that.

Good Tips. I've not seen you post in a while. Good to see you are OK

thew92 · 06-10-2011, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoofedInTheChest

Ive only been at this for a year or so but i can help you out, i'm sure the veteran players on here will be happy to chime in as well.

1 - I would practice at first, there is a learning curve you must go through before you get the feel for it. You will burn through money if you go at it uneducated. If you do make some bets i would start with $2 bets. You have to learn how to handicap as well as learn how to bet, they are two different animals.
2 - http://www.horseplayersassociation.o...kname2010.html
3 - You can get rebates but you have to be betting large amounts, others on here can explain further.
4 - You found it right here.
5 - There is expensive software and inexpensive software, as well there is free software that members of this board have created, read through the threads you will figure it out pretty quick.
6 - Handicapping 101 by Brad Free
Beyer on Speed by Andrew Beyer
Picking Winners by Andrew Beyer
There are a ton of others to pick from, look online for the books, you wont find them in book stores.
7 - There all sucker bets......... just kidding.
8 - It's a thing you have to feel out, try different tracks and see what you like, some tracks i can't make money at, and some i can.
9 - I'm Canadian so i can't help you with that.

Yes great post thanks
1. I have just been bet the $2 tickets but I mostly have been picking a horse or 2 and betting WPS which turns into a $6 or $12 ticket.
2. If I am reading this correctly seems like the tracks are taking out 16%-20%. This seems like a large "rake" to overcome.
5. I have been using the Neurax because its free and has a low cost for the data input.
6. I will start with Handicapping 101 Since the 101 class is the one I need now thanks.
8. I guess there is probally a thread out there called "what tracks do you like to bet"? Anyone have a link to anything like this?
9. I wish I was Canadian now then I could still be playing poker

.

lansdale · 06-10-2011, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thew92

Hello Everyone I am new to Horseracing handicapping and need to know where to start. Forgive me if I am asking some dumb question.

I was a online poker player and if you haven’t heard the US DoJ shut down the major sites. So now I am going to try to get into Horseracing handicapping. There are a few comparisons I am going to try and make with this.

1. Bankroll management: I was a limit hold’em player and there you should aways have at least 350 Big Bet for the limits you play as to withstand the swings in the game. Is there a rule of thumb about how much you should bet on a race as far as your Bank-Roll goes?

2. Rake/Takeout: What is the avg. takeout pure race? Or where do I go to see how much is taken out?

3. Rakeback/Rebate: In poker some sites gave you rack back if you knew where to get it and other had a VIP system that was equal to rake back. Do any of the American ran sites offer any kind of rebate system or a VIP equivalent? (I am not interested in betting in offshore sites after what has happen to the online poker industry.)

4. Coaching Sites – In poker there are coaching sites out there that teach you how to play poker and so on. Like Card Runners and Deuces Cracked. They also had one on one coaching available. Is there anything similar in the horseracing world?

5. Software – In poker I had PT3 and HEM to work with I see all kind of software avilible for horseracing and some of them seem a little pricey to me.

6. Books – What books would you recommend reading for a beginner?

7. Sucker Bets – Any time there is gambling a casino will offer beginners sucker bet are there any in horseracing that you would recommend I stay away from?

8. When betting on horses I see about 20 tracks running races every day what track are the most popular and have the best horse and simulcast? I really like the way Churchill Downs does their simulcast.

9. Who are all the American ran online sites out there and should I open an account with all of them just to chase the sign-up bonus?

Hi thew,

This may seem like a discouraging subject line, but to put things in a nutshell, it's much more difficult to make money playing the horses than playing poker. To put it another way, there are many, many more people making good money from poker (maybe you are/were one of them) than from handicapping. The primary reason from this is the difference between parimutuel pools, in which you are always playing against a racing public which is, as a group, a tough competitor, and a sizable percentage of poker games (more B&M than online) in which you can find yourself playing against some truly incompetent (or drunk) opponents.

I know many people now in the same boat as yourself, after the recent bust (maybe also some on this site), and most of them are turning to B&M games to fill the poker void. Obviously, you're much more limited as to choice of games, but if you were good enough to make money in the tougher environment online, you should do well in higher limit B&M games.

If you're intent on getting into horseracing, this is the best site on the internet on the subject, with a number of sharp players, among them some pros, and they can give you advice on software. But I would conjecture that there are fewer than 300 people in the U.S. making more than 10k annually playing the horses. If any pro players think I'm being too negative, I hope they'll provide some feedback.

Cheers,

lansdale

thew92 · 06-10-2011, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lansdale

Hi thew,

This may seem like a discouraging subject line, but to put things in a nutshell, it's much more difficult to make money playing the horses than playing poker. To put it another way, there are many, many more people making good money from poker (maybe you are/were one of them) than from handicapping. The primary reason from this is the difference between parimutuel pools, in which you are always playing against a racing public which is, as a group, a tough competitor, and a sizable percentage of poker games (more B&M than online) in which you can find yourself playing against some truly incompetent (or drunk) opponents.

I know many people now in the same boat as yourself, after the recent bust (maybe also some on this site), and most of them are turning to B&M games to fill the poker void. Obviously, you're much more limited as to choice of games, but if you were good enough to make money in the tougher environment online, you should do well in higher limit B&M games.

If you're intent on getting into horseracing, this is the best site on the internet on the subject, with a number of sharp players, among them some pros, and they can give you advice on software. But I would conjecture that there are fewer than 300 people in the U.S. making more than 10k annually playing the horses. If any pro players think I'm being too negative, I hope they'll provide some feedback.

Cheers,

lansdale

The problem is that I live in Texas and the closest legal place to play is a 3+ hour drive for me. There are a few underground games around but I really don't fell safe playing in them. I have no expectation of making a lot of money at horse racing but mainly to fill the void of my online poker which I but a lot of time into. And in the past few weeks of betting the ponies I have had a lot of fun at it. I would just like to get better at it. maybe for the short time this might mean just losing less and one day maybe breaking even then to accually learning how to place +EV bets. The most discouraging thing I have seen so far is the 18% take out.

But yes you are correct the live B&M games are softer than the online games. And one of the thing I did online was "Bumhunting" which worked well.

thaskalos · 06-10-2011, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thew92

Hello Everyone I am new to Horseracing handicapping and need to know where to start. Forgive me if I am asking some dumb question.

I was a online poker player and if you haven’t heard the US DoJ shut down the major sites. So now I am going to try to get into Horseracing handicapping. There are a few comparisons I am going to try and make with this.

1. Bankroll management: I was a limit hold’em player and there you should aways have at least 350 Big Bet for the limits you play as to withstand the swings in the game. Is there a rule of thumb about how much you should bet on a race as far as your Bank-Roll goes?

2. Rake/Takeout: What is the avg. takeout pure race? Or where do I go to see how much is taken out?

3. Rakeback/Rebate: In poker some sites gave you rack back if you knew where to get it and other had a VIP system that was equal to rake back. Do any of the American ran sites offer any kind of rebate system or a VIP equivalent? (I am not interested in betting in offshore sites after what has happen to the online poker industry.)

4. Coaching Sites – In poker there are coaching sites out there that teach you how to play poker and so on. Like Card Runners and Deuces Cracked. They also had one on one coaching available. Is there anything similar in the horseracing world?

5. Software – In poker I had PT3 and HEM to work with I see all kind of software avilible for horseracing and some of them seem a little pricey to me.

6. Books – What books would you recommend reading for a beginner?

7. Sucker Bets – Any time there is gambling a casino will offer beginners sucker bet are there any in horseracing that you would recommend I stay away from?

8. When betting on horses I see about 20 tracks running races every day what track are the most popular and have the best horse and simulcast? I really like the way Churchill Downs does their simulcast.

9. Who are all the American ran online sites out there and should I open an account with all of them just to chase the sign-up bonus?

Starting off as a winning online poker player is a BIG plus, IMO. Successful poker players share certain traits which will prove invaluable to you on your road to success in this game. Patience...and the ability to maintain your composure during the "bad streaks", are of vital importance in poker...and this applies to horse racing as well.

1.) Bankroll management: Yes, there are bankroll guidelines in this game as well...but they depend on your style of play...and - since you are a beginner - they don't apply to you. Start off your journey by making the smallest bets possible...because you are guaranteed to make a TON of mistakes during your learning process.

NO bankroll is big enough if you are a losing player!

2.) Rake/takeout: Go to the HANA website (information is found on this site)...where you will find the takeouts for every bet, in every track in North America.

3.) Rakebake/rebates: Yes...there are rebates in this game too, and this information can also be found on this site. Just use the SEARCH option and type in "rebates". Don't let your urge for high rebates tempt you into a start of big bets right off the bat. That's a recipe for disaster.

4.) Coaching sites: Regrettably, there is no such thing as an online training site for the beginning horseplayer yet...

Dave Schwartz offers tons of good stuff on his website...and most of them are easily understandable by novice players. You are encouraged to take a look...

5.) Software: Yes...there are software out there, but you should create a foundation built on the fundamentals before looking into that area of the game.

6.) Books: I have suggested books to beginning players before...and this is my opinion as it stands right now:

RECREATIONAL HANDICAPPING - by James Quinn. This is the best book of its kind out there.

FIGURE HANDICAPPING - James Quinn. Accurate speed figure are everywhere. This book shows how to apply them...

James Quinn's books are a little "drier" that those by Andy Beyer...but they are very informative.

7.) Sucker bets: Regrettably, this game is too complex...and I don't think I should give you a list of what I consider to be "sucker bets" in this game. If I do...someone is likely to jump in and say that the very bets I consider sucker bets are the ones he/she has been making successfully for years.

Just remember that sticking with "favorites", and betting every race race are NOT the way to go in this game.

Just like poker...this game is about DISCIPLINE and VALUE.

8.) Best tracks: The tracks change depending on the time of year. Right now, the best tracks are Belmont and Churchill Downs.

I suggest that you stay with the New York, Kentucky, and Florida circuits at this stage of your development as a player.

9.) Online betting sites: Twinspires and TVG are the biggest...but you will discover more of them when you do the search on "rebates" that I suggested before.

And NO...you should NOT start chasing the sign-up bonuses or the rebates right from the start. Your primary focus should be on learning the fundamentals of the game...and your bets - AND YOUR ONLINE DEPOSITS - should be small.

Otherwise...your tuition will cost you plenty. And that's no lie...

I would like to finish by telling you that this site right here is the meeting place for some of the best and brightest players out there...and they will all go out of their way to help you in any way they can...if you will just ask.

I wish you much success in this game...just don't be in a hurry. There is alot to learn...

lansdale · 06-10-2011, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thew92

Hello Everyone I am new to Horseracing handicapping and need to know where to start. Forgive me if I am asking some dumb question.

I was a online poker player and if you haven’t heard the US DoJ shut down the major sites. So now I am going to try to get into Horseracing handicapping. There are a few comparisons I am going to try and make with this.

1. Bankroll management: I was a limit hold’em player and there you should aways have at least 350 Big Bet for the limits you play as to withstand the swings in the game. Is there a rule of thumb about how much you should bet on a race as far as your Bank-Roll goes?

2. Rake/Takeout: What is the avg. takeout pure race? Or where do I go to see how much is taken out?

3. Rakeback/Rebate: In poker some sites gave you rack back if you knew where to get it and other had a VIP system that was equal to rake back. Do any of the American ran sites offer any kind of rebate system or a VIP equivalent? (I am not interested in betting in offshore sites after what has happen to the online poker industry.)

4. Coaching Sites – In poker there are coaching sites out there that teach you how to play poker and so on. Like Card Runners and Deuces Cracked. They also had one on one coaching available. Is there anything similar in the horseracing world?

5. Software – In poker I had PT3 and HEM to work with I see all kind of software avilible for horseracing and some of them seem a little pricey to me.

6. Books – What books would you recommend reading for a beginner?

7. Sucker Bets – Any time there is gambling a casino will offer beginners sucker bet are there any in horseracing that you would recommend I stay away from?

8. When betting on horses I see about 20 tracks running races every day what track are the most popular and have the best horse and simulcast? I really like the way Churchill Downs does their simulcast.

9. Who are all the American ran online sites out there and should I open an account with all of them just to chase the sign-up bonus?

Hi thew,

This may seem like a discouraging subject line, but to put things in a nutshell, it's much more difficult to make money playing the horses than playing poker. To put it another way, there are many, many more people making good money from poker (maybe you are/were one of them) than from handicapping. The primary reason from this is the difference between parimutuel pools, in which you are always playing against a racing public which is, as a group, a tough competitor, and a sizable percentage of poker games (more B&M than online) in which you can find yourself playing against some truly incompetent (or drunk) opponents.

I know many people now in the same boat as yourself, after the recent bust (maybe also some on this site), and most of them are turning to B&M games to fill the poker void. Obviously, you're much more limited as to choice of games, but if you were good enough to make money in the tougher environment online, you should do well in higher limit B&M games.

If you're intent on getting into horseracing, this is the best site on the internet on the subject, with a number of sharp players, among them some pros, and they can give you advice on software. But I would conjecture that there are fewer than 300 people in the U.S. making more than 10k annually playing the horses. If any pro players think I'm being too negative, I hope they'll provide some feedback.

Cheers,

lansdale

thaskalos · 06-10-2011, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lansdale

Hi thew,

This may seem like a discouraging subject line, but to put things in a nutshell, it's much more difficult to make money playing the horses than playing poker. To put it another way, there are many, many more people making good money from poker (maybe you are/were one of them) than from handicapping. The primary reason from this is the difference between parimutuel pools, in which you are always playing against a racing public which is, as a group, a tough competitor, and a sizable percentage of poker games (more B&M than online) in which you can find yourself playing against some truly incompetent (or drunk) opponents.

I know many people now in the same boat as yourself, after the recent bust (maybe also some on this site), and most of them are turning to B&M games to fill the poker void. Obviously, you're much more limited as to choice of games, but if you were good enough to make money in the tougher environment online, you should do well in higher limit B&M games.

If you're intent on getting into horseracing, this is the best site on the internet on the subject, with a number of sharp players, among them some pros, and they can give you advice on software. But I would conjecture that there are fewer than 300 people in the U.S. making more than 10k annually playing the horses. If any pro players think I'm being too negative, I hope they'll provide some feedback.

Cheers,

lansdale

I swear I have read this before...