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Old 11-21-2012, 08:10 PM   #31
baconswitchfarm
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[QUOTE=

I talked to someone this week at Dover Down's racebook that has noticed a significant decline in handle since Roberts Comm. discontinued their use of C-Band in September and is very concerned.[/QUOTE]


The dover racebook handle is in freefall. They are not the only place.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:30 PM   #32
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This is a perfect thread. You talk about a change made that is hurting handle and bringing down tracks bottom line. This was a change made that was only a benefit to the business with a monopoly on signal distribution. A negative to players , tracks , and simulcast across the board. Now you have to listen to people tell you not to be unhappy , that you are the one who needs to adjust. I am going to tell those people a secret they may not know. Please feel free to pass it on to your friends in track management.
Customers do not have to adjust to your poor decisions. For twenty years people in charge have made decisions and said the players will just have to adjust. Wake up dummies, they have adjusted. They are doing other things beside going to the track . That is the final adjustment.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:49 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by edmond1
A group of us(with the use of laptops) used to bet over $3 million a year (includes rebate shops and betting exchanges) when C-Band was used (3 seconds faster than now). Since last second odds, body language etc. is critical in our betting strategies we found that the loss of 3 seconds greatly affected our chance to stay ahead of the game. Now we only average approx. $1 million a year - mostly on live racing.

I talked to someone this week at Dover Down's racebook that has noticed a significant decline in handle since Roberts Comm. discontinued their use of C-Band in September and is very concerned.

Since I am at the track almost everyday I constantly witness frustrated bettors getting shut out all the time.

If it doesn't matter why would Betfair offer feeds approx. 1 second delayed on British Racing. Important for INPLAY yes but they also understand that time is money - even 1 second. Over the long run the seconds add up...They just don't get it here - just clueless.

How can anyone argue that handle will not be affected if 3 seconds of betting time gets chopped off at a crucial time when betting increases exponentially to post time ??????????

Maybe you guys work for Roberts Comm. ?? Because that's the same attitude they had when I spoke to them. Or maybe what Angeleyes says above is true ??
It's not that "they just don't get it"...I explained the technology and to give you that almost live signal the cost would be prohibitive.
Why is it available in the UK? I can only guess that the technology is there because as with most Western European nations, many industries are subsidized by the central government.
I have to ask..First what is missing in body language at 5 mins to post that may be there at 5 seconds to load?
I do notice that while on track the majority of the handle hits the tote board in the last few mins before "off". I refuse to believe that it hits with less than 5 seconds to the bell.
You still have not convinced me of the merits of waiting until the last possible nanno-second to make or cancel your wagers.
And please. "You just don't understand" won't cut it. If you want others to understand your plight you must come clean and explain the REAL reason why you require live feed as though you were on track....
Oh one more question.. When you are watching feeds from your laptop or other device, if the feed is not trained on your horse(s) then how can you look at body language?
One last point. Most tracks especially in the warmer months have been reporting increases in all sources handle. Just because your acquaintance at Dover Downs tells you handle is down at that facility, does not mean it is down at other places.
I am not challenging you. I am having a hard time with controlling my inquisitive nature and heightened awareness of "something just does not look right"..
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:27 PM   #34
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No one is demanding real time. The least your upgrade should do is be as fast as the signal you provided for the last twenty years. IT IS NOT.

In September , roberts killed all cband feeds and went to total dish feeds. Since then millions of dollars in handle has declined directly because of this. They know. They say they are working on a viable alternative. The obvious alternative is to do what you were doing for twenty years without this delay. What's a million a month here or there in a industry this strong ?
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:25 PM   #35
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In September , roberts killed all cband feeds and went to total dish feeds. Since then millions of dollars in handle has declined directly because of this. They know. They say they are working on a viable alternative. The obvious alternative is to do what you were doing for twenty years without this delay. What's a million a month here or there in a industry this strong ?
As a long time subscriber to the RTN feed, long before the Dishnet contract, and one who is acutely aware of handle movement, I would suggest that your estimates of lost handle are grossly overstated. I cannot prove this any more than you can prove your side of the argument.

I can say that a decline in handle is not proof that the inaccuracies are costing millions in handle because handle has been declining for years.

At many tracks - especially those with high rebates - my statistics indicate that approximately 72% of total win pool handle shows in the pool AFTER the gate is open. This is NOT due to past posting, but rather the fact that so many large wagers come in just before the gate is loaded but after the last usable tote flash.

I would further suppose that a greater percentage of pool is showing up after the gate is open than ever before. (This is anecdotal, but I believe it to be true.)

The only way to really know the millions being left unwagered, would be if there is a specific statistic which says, "rejected bets." I am unaware of any such published stats. If you have such statistics, please post them. I would be very interested in any tote movement stats available.


As for being shut out, it would be my experience that horse players adapt very quickly to change. Do I ever get shut out? Absolutely. However, it is rarely because I waited too long to play BECAUSE of a slow feed. Generally, it is because I was not paying attention and allowed the time to get away from me (despite the fact that I have measures in place to prevent this).

I suggest that anyone who is playing on anything that resembles a serious and/or professional level WILL quickly learn from being shut out once or twice in a single day that they must get their wagers in earlier. It isn't rocket science.

IMHO, anyone who is getting shut out often is either using a feed that is off by far more than 5 seconds or insists on wagering at the last possible moment. And sometimes they miss. Again, IMHO, that would mean that their approach to timing needs to be revamped. The industry has shown for years, it is very disrespectful of the customers needs.

Simply put, the tracks will go down in flames before they change anything.


Of course, this is just my opinion.

Yours may differ greatly.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 11-21-2012 at 10:29 PM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:02 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm
No one is demanding real time. The least your upgrade should do is be as fast as the signal you provided for the last twenty years. IT IS NOT.

In September , roberts killed all cband feeds and went to total dish feeds. Since then millions of dollars in handle has declined directly because of this. They know. They say they are working on a viable alternative. The obvious alternative is to do what you were doing for twenty years without this delay. What's a million a month here or there in a industry this strong ?
They have been working on it for almost 2 years now ?????????

That's when most places converted. Before the change Roberts claimed that the difference would be negligible -less than a second. It went from 5 seconds slower at first to 3 seconds - been like this for over a year and a half now. STILL WAITING !!!!!
A manager (Peter Blackmon) at Roberts told me that he can provide tracks/simulcast locations with feeds close to real time - only 1 second delay. Its all about how much you want to spend. He also indicated that most higher ups were satisfied with a 5 second delay and hence what we have now.
Track Management don't give a sh!t - they get paid a salary no matter what happens. We are just a bunch of degenerate idiots anyways.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:25 PM   #37
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Their claim is they can give it to you one second behind. Then they said it might cost 10k a month to a track. Multiple tracks said ok , put it in. Then they went to spitting and stammering and making excuses for months. I highly doubt they have the ability at all.
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Old 11-21-2012, 11:47 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by thespaah
It's not that "they just don't get it"...I explained the technology and to give you that almost live signal the cost would be prohibitive.
Why is it available in the UK? I can only guess that the technology is there because as with most Western European nations, many industries are subsidized by the central government.
I have to ask..First what is missing in body language at 5 mins to post that may be there at 5 seconds to load?
I do notice that while on track the majority of the handle hits the tote board in the last few mins before "off". I refuse to believe that it hits with less than 5 seconds to the bell.
You still have not convinced me of the merits of waiting until the last possible nanno-second to make or cancel your wagers.
And please. "You just don't understand" won't cut it. If you want others to understand your plight you must come clean and explain the REAL reason why you require live feed as though you were on track....
Oh one more question.. When you are watching feeds from your laptop or other device, if the feed is not trained on your horse(s) then how can you look at body language?
One last point. Most tracks especially in the warmer months have been reporting increases in all sources handle. Just because your acquaintance at Dover Downs tells you handle is down at that facility, does not mean it is down at other places.
I am not challenging you. I am having a hard time with controlling my inquisitive nature and heightened awareness of "something just does not look right"..
If Exchange wagering is implemented in the U.S. you will understand. Right now on most U.S. markets most of the significant money starts to get matched there anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes before post time and like here increases exponentially till post time. Many times there are strategies where one lays on the exchange first and then bets at the tote. The good thing about the exchange is that odds you get are fixed but on tote they aren't. TOTE odds changing so drastically as horses are loading in the gate complicates matters. On top of that we rely heavily on gate behavior as well. Slower feeds now creates many situations where I get stuck with a LAY bet on the Exchange and no offsetting bets on the TOTE(ie. got shut out). If he wins I'm screwed.
If you are primarily a multi race bettor I can see why a couple of seconds doesn't matter. Every second counts with what we do.
Also I can see why standardbred players can be angry now - why would anyone bet serious money when a horse can break yards before the start changing the whole complexion of the race .....

Hope this answers your question.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:00 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm
Their claim is they can give it to you one second behind. Then they said it might cost 10k a month to a track. Multiple tracks said ok , put it in. Then they went to spitting and stammering and making excuses for months. I highly doubt they have the ability at all.
I know that it is possible. Like I said Betfair provides close to real time feeds to their bettors on British Racing. And I am pretty sure that Roberts is providing them very fast feeds(maybe through TVG) on US Racing. They are supposedly managing US horse racing markets overseas and yet are seeing things faster than us ??? How is that possible ?????
The difference is that they are on the ball and have no problem spending money on ensuring that they keep their shareholders happy.....
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:26 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by edmond1
I know that it is possible. Like I said Betfair provides close to real time feeds to their bettors on British Racing. And I am pretty sure that Roberts is providing them very fast feeds(maybe through TVG) on US Racing. They are supposedly managing US horse racing markets overseas and yet are seeing things faster than us ??? How is that possible ?????
The difference is that they are on the ball and have no problem spending money on ensuring that they keep their shareholders happy.....
If we don't have real time feeds, Betfair might as well not even attempt to start up exchange waging in California, as it is, exchange wagering will be hard to implement without the added problem of delayed feeds.

This industry continues to shoot itself in the foot at every turn.
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Old 11-22-2012, 12:35 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by edmond1
If Exchange wagering is implemented in the U.S. you will understand. Right now on most U.S. markets most of the significant money starts to get matched there anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes before post time and like here increases exponentially till post time. Many times there are strategies where one lays on the exchange first and then bets at the tote. The good thing about the exchange is that odds you get are fixed but on tote they aren't. TOTE odds changing so drastically as horses are loading in the gate complicates matters. On top of that we rely heavily on gate behavior as well. Slower feeds now creates many situations where I get stuck with a LAY bet on the Exchange and no offsetting bets on the TOTE(ie. got shut out). If he wins I'm screwed.
If you are primarily a multi race bettor I can see why a couple of seconds doesn't matter. Every second counts with what we do.
Also I can see why standardbred players can be angry now - why would anyone bet serious money when a horse can break yards before the start changing the whole complexion of the race .....

Hope this answers your question.
Sure does. However I think you are the exception to the rule.
I cite and agree with Dave Schwartz post in this thread.
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Old 11-22-2012, 08:23 PM   #42
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video broadcast too slow

I am no expert on the simulcast technology, but I know we (horseplayers) should be getting faster video feeds, simply because the technology does exist.

Proof of this is overseas British Racing online...it's practically in Real-Time over the internet! We can watch races in England over the internet broadcast faster than those run here in North America. This means that North American video providers are supplying inferior quality.



We should have the best available video provided to us...not the slow feeds we're getting now. The so-called “live” video is slower today than it was a few years ago, so something should be done to correct this sub-standard broadcast situation. It needs to be improved by approximately 5-7 seconds. That’s how bad it is.
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Old 11-22-2012, 10:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ragstoriches
I am no expert on the simulcast technology, but I know we (horseplayers) should be getting faster video feeds, simply because the technology does exist.

Proof of this is overseas British Racing online...it's practically in Real-Time over the internet! We can watch races in England over the internet broadcast faster than those run here in North America. This means that North American video providers are supplying inferior quality.



We should have the best available video provided to us...not the slow feeds we're getting now. The so-called “live” video is slower today than it was a few years ago, so something should be done to correct this sub-standard broadcast situation. It needs to be improved by approximately 5-7 seconds. That’s how bad it is.
Then pay for it. The nearly real time technology is expensive.
Professional horse players are a smart bunch of people. They will adjust. As technology becomes less expensive, it will improve.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:11 PM   #44
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That is what Roberts said. It is expensive you would have to pay for it. Multiple tracks said ok , put it in. Nobody has it . What is the hold up ? They have the approval to go ahead and tracks will pay. Now they constantly stall and make excuses. Must be nice to have a monopoly where you can tell your captive clients to go f themselves why you overcharge them for your piss poor services .
By the way, If you had another company to go to where there was competition in this market, Roberts would have this fixed in one month. If they didn't , the other company would do it and put them out of business. This is why they bust up monopolies.

Last edited by baconswitchfarm; 11-22-2012 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 11-22-2012, 11:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by baconswitchfarm
That is what Roberts said. It is expensive you would have to pay for it. Multiple tracks said ok , put it in. Nobody has it . What is the hold up ? They have the approval to go ahead and tracks will pay. Now they constantly stall and make excuses. Must be nice to have a monopoly where you can tell your captive clients to go f themselves why you overcharge them for your piss poor services .
By the way, If you had another company to go to where there was competition in this market, Roberts would have this fixed in one month. If they didn't , the other company would do it and put them out of business. This is why they bust up monopolies.
Absolutely 100% correct.
However, if the tracks, ADW's and OTW wagering sites installed the technology, surely it would be passed along to the consumer.
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