Players continue to walk away from the game.

[castaway01]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

instead of complaining about drugs, takeout, breakage, and the after bell wagers that are coming in and out of the pools. you should just concentrate your efforts on winning. if this game is not a question of how much you want to pick up, then you need to take a hike and find a different game that is more suitable to your needs.

there ain't nothing going to be done to stop all the problems we all know exist. so live within the context of what the game is, or stop complaining and move on.

First, what does the gibberish in bold even mean? No one gambles for charity, and anyone who gambled at horse racing for $2 fun bets is long, long gone.

As for the rest of what you wrote, the problem is that track owners (not ALL but too many) have the same attitude that you do. As long as the slot money rolls in, to hell with the rest of the product and those who bet on it. People with your narrow-minded, greedy viewpoint are what has killed the game.

[Onesome]

How many purses increases have been announced over the last couple of months?

Now compare that to the number of takeout reductions have been announced over the last couple of months?

Add in the fact that tracks cater to the most disloyal customers in CRW teams/players over the on track player. At least the poker sites got it right years ago when they realized that players grinding rebates over 24 tables were not good for the poker economy and took massive steps to make it not worth while for those types anymore.

[Track Phantom]

I think horse racing has a "bad eco-system" issue. Trainers and owners hold all the cards when it comes to the composition of races. Owners give too many horses to too few trainers. If a trainer has a dozen strong two-year old maidens, he might run two against each other. In addition, trainers and owners have absolutely no incentive to inflate field size. It's the exact opposite. I'm quite certain any owner would gladly take a graded stakes they are in against 4 opponents. These things kill the interest, and betting opportunity, all too often.

I can't really articulate it or put my finger on it but it seems weekday racing is almost "trainer racing". In other words, races are carded for certain trainers to get their stock through conditions and the favorites become too top heavy. I see so many overbet, low priced winners on weekdays.

Whoever is betting winners off the nub at the last click is sucking the soul right out of the game. I have little problem with late odds swings as the gate opens (although I'd prefer it not be that way). The problem I have is how often this money is accurate. There are a lot of things that require you to hold your nose while participating in this game. This phenomenon will be what pushes me out in the end if it continues to the degree it has been.

I've gambled on everything and there is not a better gambling game. But there is definitely a much larger edge going to inside money than I remember in the past and that certainly isn't going to entice people to follow and stick with it.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by delfman

the type of cheating that I am most scared of is not the drugging, IMO, drugging/doping, etc...
I am sure there are new ways to dope horses every week that can go undetected. Those situations occur in big $ races.
I'm afraid of the collusion's with the owners, trainers, jockeys, etc... to fix outcomes of races to cash tickets.
purposely running the 3/5 shots out of the supers or high fives.
I wouldn't even doubt that track officials aren't in on it.

For what earthly reason would track officials be in on it?

Being one myself. We are acutely aware that the more fair, unbiased and level playing field offered the players the better.

I know the problems are far from solved. However, I'm sure most must agree we are trending in a positive direction.

A Kentucky Derby winner has been DQ'ed for using an illegal race day med.

People are going to prison because of a doping scandal. More to come.

This game can still be better than GREAT. We see this on the biggest days.

There's NOTHING like funding the account and attacking a great card with full fields of top horses.

That will appeal to any demographic.

[Track Phantom]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

...

A Kentucky Derby winner has been DQ'ed for using an illegal race day med.

People are going to prison because of a doping scandal. More to come.

I think you meant to call these out as positive. But they can also be viewed as negative. Yes, a Derby winner has been DQ'd and the trainer/owner are going to any lengths, including dragging horse racing through the mud, to overturn a result that was ill-gotten. All the while cheapening the Ky Derby.

People are going to prison ONLY due to an FBI investigation that wasn't even initially after horse racing. In other words, I would argue that bad actors are now more embolden as they know nothing serious can happen with internal oversight so weak, and the Fed's aren't really all that interested in this as a stand-alone issue.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by Track Phantom

I think you meant to call these out as positive. But they can also be viewed as negative. Yes, a Derby winner has been DQ'd and the trainer/owner are going to any lengths, including dragging horse racing through the mud, to overturn a result that was ill-gotten. All the while cheapening the Ky Derby.

People are going to prison ONLY due to an FBI investigation that wasn't even initially after horse racing. In other words, I would argue that bad actors are now more embolden as they know nothing serious can happen with internal oversight so weak, and the Fed's aren't really all that interested in this as a stand-alone issue.

I'm saying that regulators are trying.

They are listening to the customer base and TRYING to address their concerns.

It's a long way from being solved. May never get there.

However, the industry has been accused of being complicit and putting their heads in the sand.

I do think a case can be made that things are trending in the right direction.

[westernmassbob]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

For what earthly reason would track officials be in on it?

Being one myself. We are acutely aware that the more fair, unbiased and level playing field offered the players the better.

I know the problems are far from solved. However, I'm sure most must agree we are trending in a positive direction.

A Kentucky Derby winner has been DQ'ed for using an illegal race day med.

People are going to prison because of a doping scandal. More to come.

This game can still be better than GREAT. We see this on the biggest days.

There's NOTHING like funding the account and attacking a great card with full fields of top horses.

That will appeal to any demographic.

I’m glad to hear that you think racing is heading in a positive direction. It was just a few years ago that you quoted “ it was the beginning of the end for horse racing “. This was when all those horse deaths occurred in California. I thought you were on to something but I’m sure you would agree now you have changed your mind....thankfully.

[v j stauffer]

Originally Posted by westernmassbob

I’m glad to hear that you think racing is heading in a positive direction. It was just a few years ago that you quoted “ it was the beginning of the end for horse racing “. This was when all those horse deaths occurred in California. I thought you were on to something but I’m sure you would agree now you have changed your mind....thankfully.

That doesn't sound like something I would say.

Where was I quoted saying that?

I suppose it's possible. Wouldn't be the first dumb thing I've said.

I haven't changed anything. I've been pro horse racing since I first walked through the stable gate at Hollywood Park when I was 15 years old in 1974.

[Andy Asaro]

The ONLY way racing moves forward is to make takeout adjustments to WPS and Exactas to as close to 12% as they can along with paying breakage to the penny on those wagers. It must be sold as gambling game of skill along with entertainment. When that happens word of mouth will take care of the rest. People love to tell others when they win. And racing will finally be somewhat competitive with Sports betting.

And, when it comes to takeout adjustments they have to pick and number and monitor handle and revenue to determine the optimal price point (and that could be slightly different for different jurisdictions). Within a two or three months racing will begin to get an idea where the optimal price point is and make adjustments. My best guess is that they should begin at 14% and start the experiment.

Doesn't matter whether someone is 20 yrs old or 70 years old. Everyone likes to have a legit shot at making money at a true gambling game of skill.

All other efforts to grow the game have failed dramatically yet the people in the bubble who call the shots refuse to do the one thing that has a good chance of success.

Good luck

[mountainman]

The players I talk to gripe primarily about one thing: extreme shifts in odds posted after the break. Some attribute this to cheating-they truly believe somebody somehow watches a small portion of the race and then lays it in (or cancels)- while others just feel helplessly manipulated by dark and all-knowing forces. And some races clearly ARE a chess match between tote-buffeting factions.

However misguided these perceptions may be, it's very bad for the smaller bettor when big fish can cannibalize themselves by creating underlaid price-points and still manage to make money.

It's easy to suggest always betting against these chalk-centric entities, but that entails missing out on plenty of cinch 2-1 winners that somehow evade their odds-destroying death rays, and ignores the fact that at some tracks, in this era of smarter and smarter computer programs and shorter and shorter fields, favorites seem to win more..and more,,and more.

In short, the bettors I talk to either in person or via text care far more about prices than picograms.

[mountainman]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

I've been pro horse racing since I first walked through the stable gate at Hollywood Park when I was 15 years old in 1974.

And a very compelling advocate for the sport, if merely by example.

[The_Turf_Monster]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

The ONLY way racing moves forward is to make takeout adjustments to WPS and Exactas to as close to 12% as they can along with paying breakage to the penny on those wagers. It must be sold as gambling game of skill along with entertainment. When that happens word of mouth will take care of the rest. People love to tell others when they win. And racing will finally be somewhat competitive with Sports betting.

And, when it comes to takeout adjustments they have to pick and number and monitor handle and revenue to determine the optimal price point (and that could be slightly different for different jurisdictions). Within a two or three months racing will begin to get an idea where the optimal price point is and make adjustments. My best guess is that they should begin at 14% and start the experiment.

Doesn't matter whether someone is 20 yrs old or 70 years old. Everyone likes to have a legit shot at making money at a true gambling game of skill.

All other efforts to grow the game have failed dramatically yet the people in the bubble who call the shots refuse to do the one thing that has a good chance of success.

Good luck

The Canterbury debacle would be enough for most people to drop this foolishness, but I’ll give you credit for doubling down on your attempt to kill the game

[Andy Asaro]

Originally Posted by The_Turf_Monster

The Canterbury debacle would be enough for most people to drop this foolishness, but I’ll give you credit for doubling down on your attempt to kill the game

Your ignorance is stunning

[The_Turf_Monster]

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro

Your ignorance is stunning

Speaking of, can you define optimal takeout yet and how it translates to the figures you would like to see takeout set at?

[delfman]

"For what earthly reason would track officials be in on it?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Being one myself. We are acutely aware that the more fair, unbiased and level playing field offered the players the better."

Of course track officials want the public to believe their races are fair!It's a facade. I threw the track officials in there as an afterthought. I am sure most race fixing only involves a few people. Bigger split of the money and the less people in on it the less chance of getting caught.
I'd think a lot of race fixing only involves owners and jockeys. Leaving the trainers out. or trainers and jockeys. Leaving the owners out.
And I'm sure races have been fixed with only jockeys involved. and not by being bribed to do so. As in the case of Anthony Ciulla.
Starters and gate crew could be in on race fixing. My initial thought was that the person or persons whose job it is to investigate the betting patterns, is in on the race fixing.

Ultimately 14 races were isolated in 1974 as potentially being “fixed.” The betting patterns spoke, but what did they say?


On June 6th in the 9th race at Belmont $35,000 was wagered boxing all horses except those ridden by Angel Cordero Jr., Jose Amy, Jaime Arellano, and Jacinto Vasquez. The bets returned a profit of $185,000. 185K was a lot more money in 1974 than it is today.


On July 13th in the 5th race at Aqueduct $23,000 was wagered boxing every horse except one which was ridden by Jorge Velasquez. The bets returned a profit of $54,000.

On July 16th in the 7th race at Aqueduct $30,000 was wagered showing a profit of $70,000 boxing all the horses except two, ridden by Jorge Velasquez and Braulio Baeza, whose son is a NYRA steward today.


On July 31st in the 5th race at Saratoga $38,000 was wagered for a profit of $23,000 boxing all horses except two ridden by Jorge Velasquez and Eddie Belmonte.


On August 2nd in the 9th race at Saratoga $35,000 was wagered showing a profit of $137,340 boxing all the horses except the ones ridden by Jose Amy, Eddie Maple, Angel Cordero Jr., and Jaime Arellano.


On August 6th in the 9th race at Saratoga 60,000 was wagered for a profit of $109,056 boxing all the horses except those ridden by Jose Amy, Eddie Belmonte, and Jaime Arellano.


On August 30th in the 7th race at Saratoga $42,500 was wagered and lost boxing all the horses except those ridden by Ben Feliciano, Marco Castenada, and Angel Cordero Jr.


On October 30th in the 7th race at Aqueduct $48,700 was wagered for a profit of $130,000 boxing all the horses except two which were ridden by Braulio Baeza and Angel Cordero Jr.


On November 11th in the 5th race at Aqueduct $34,350 was wagered for a profit of $42,300 boxing everyone except one horse ridden by Jean Cruguet.


On November 30th in the 3rd race at Aqueduct $18,050 was bet for a profit of $27,000 again using all the horses but the one ridden by Jean Cruguet.


On December 6th in the 9th race at Aqueduct $22,000 was bet for a profit of $73,570 boxing all the horses except the ones ridden by Jose Amy, Jorge Velasquez and Jean Cruguet.

On December 9th in the 9th race at Aqueduct $34,894 was wagered for a profit of $129,188 boxing all the horses except the ones ridden by Jean Cruguet, Jose Amy, and Angel Cordero Jr.


On December 12th in the 9th race at Aqueduct $30,000 was wagered for a profit of $40,000 boxing all the horses except those ridden by Jose Amy, Jorge Velasquez, and Jaime Arellano.


On December 31st in the 9th race at Aqueduct $84,000 was bet and lost boxing all the horses except those ridden by Jean Cruguet, Braulio Baeza, Jaime Arellano and Jorge Velasquez.


Assuming the 14 races the investigation focused on were the only ones with these isolated betting patterns, which may or may not be a reasonable conclusion, $535,944 was wagered boxing horses leaving out favorites, showing a profit of $1,020,454. A cool mil was also a lot more in the 70’s than it is today.


I can't be the only one who thinks stuff like this is still going on today.
A lot of these bush league jocks have to work horses on a regular basis just to make ends meet. And I know human nature. We are most all greedy and corrupt.