Religion III

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

You mechanically without thinking about my suggestion to describe a direct experience, said "you must be born again". A distinctive Christian theological principle.

Actually, it isn't a "distinctive Christian theological principle"; for its roots are found in the OT. Why do you think Jesus in John 3 chided Nicodemus, a supposed learned Pharisee and teacher of Israel, for not understanding the concept of the new birth?

[b]So for the 1000th time since you started these religious threads, I ask you, are you saying any religion not accenting Jesus has no validity?

My suggestion does not put you in the awkward and silly position of having to say yes.

You still don't get it. You just can't let go.

.

I'm saying that Christianity is not primarily about religion. The bible itself is about God's plan to redeem many from a life of sin, and, therefore, ultimately from eternal condemnation. God, in his only Begotten Son Jesus, is the star of the bible; for Jesus did for mankind what no man can do for himself: He lived the sinless life that no man can live; and He died the death that we all deserve to die so as to atone for the sins of many.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

When it comes down to it, all maladies, physical and mental alike, are due to man's spiritual condition. For example, when Christ returns to restore all things -- to restore the earth back to its original pristine, paradisaical condition, there will no longer be any pain, suffering, sorrow, tears, death, etc. The reason for this is that all God's saints will have the same glorified, resurrected bodies as Christ which will make them also spiritually perfect -- as holy and righteous as God is. In short, sin is a spiritual disease that affects the entire person -- mind, body, soul and heart.

Toothaches? Hemorrhoids, hangnails?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Toothaches? Hemorrhoids, hangnails?

Won't have any of those in the restored earth. Not even a wart or toenail fungus.

What you're having a problem wrapping your mind around is that the present order of things on this planet is abnormal; for God never intended it to be this way. There's a new norm coming when Jesus returns to restore all things.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Actually, it isn't a "distinctive Christian theological principle"; for its roots are found in the OT. Why do you think Jesus in John 3 chided Nicodemus, a supposed learned Pharisee and teacher of Israel, for not understanding the concept of the new birth?

.

I'm saying that Christianity is not primarily about religion. The bible itself is about God's plan to redeem many from a life of sin, and, therefore, ultimately from eternal condemnation. God, in his only Begotten Son Jesus, is the star of the bible; for Jesus did for mankind what no man can do for himself: He lived the sinless life that no man can live; and He died the death that we all deserve to die so as to atone for the sins of many.

No you used born again in the specific Christian context. Specifically you said

you must be born again. I experience the Lord regularly

Howe many times did you claim and we argue about....

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, are you using Yahweh the father, or Jesus as your lord? Or are you finally ready to admit there are other ways then Jesus?

In Judaism according Maimonides, and much of official traditional Jewish thought, God is understood as the absolute one, indivisible, and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence.

In Christianity there is a duality, a mediator between man and god. Not so in
Judaism. There can be no mediator.

Besides, what about the non-Abrahamic religions of Buddhism and Hinduism?
Are they valid not drawing on the O.T and Jesus?

Why can't you drop your specific map and speak of the territory, all religious maps point to?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

No you used born again in the specific Christian context. Specifically you saidHowe many times did you claim and we argue about....

I alluded to John 3 to show that the spiritual concept of new birth has its origins in the OT, as do all biblical doctrines.

So, are you using Yahweh the father, or Jesus as your lord? Or are you finally ready to admit there are other ways then Jesus?

The Trinity is One.

In Judaism according Maimonides, and much of official traditional Jewish thought, God is understood as the absolute one, indivisible, and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence.

In Christianity there is a duality, a mediator between man and god. Not so in
Judaism. There can be no mediator.

There is no duality. God the Father was in the Son reconciling sinners to himself. God in Christ is the mediator between God the Father.

Besides, what about the non-Abrahamic religions of Buddhism and Hinduism? Are they valid not drawing on the O.T and Jesus?

Why can't you drop your specific map and speak of the territory, all religious maps point to?

Wrong question. You're stuck on religion instead of God's plan of redemption for mankind. As it is written: Salvation is found in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must saved. (Act 4:12). You should be asking, therefore, can man save (or redeem) himself through some other religion? Or is there some other name under heaven that can save men?

P.S. "All religious maps" do not point to the same "territory".

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

Toothaches? Hemorrhoids, hangnails?

Myopia, pimples, premature ejaculation!

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Most likely due to man's spiritual condition.

Most likely? What are the other possibilities?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Most likely? What are the other possibilities?

Did you read my 5400 post?

I mean...I suppose there's a remote possibility that aliens could be the cause of all our physical and mental maladies. Or even that such things are merely illusions.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I alluded to John 3 to show that the spiritual concept of new birth has its origins in the OT, as do all biblical doctrines.

The Trinity is One.

There is no duality. God the Father was in the Son reconciling sinners to himself. God in Christ is the mediator between God the Father.

Wrong question. You're stuck on religion instead of God's plan of redemption for mankind. As it is written: Salvation is found in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must saved. (Act 4:12). You should be asking, therefore, can man save (or redeem) himself through some other religion? Or is there some other name under heaven that can save men?

P.S. "All religious maps" do not point to the same "territory".

How would you know what other maps point to without studying those maps?
I have. The ones I studied and practiced, do. But that territory is infinite and not all maps concentrate on the same local within that territory

Conscience, love, compassion, humility and stillness however are present as a divine "axis" of consciousness that permeates that territory in all locals.

But alongside interwoven with the "divine" is another axis of "lack of consciousness", randomness and disorder.

It has been my experience the "territory" I have asked you to speak to, is so vast, many maps may be derived from a deep understanding of what reality is.

Being directly aware of "Tathātā", or the Buddhist "suchness of things", can give powerful insights , not always verbal. When anyone gets really good at something, much becomes possible. The universe in a grain of sand, may be more instructive than endless debate about maps.

Therefore, there are non-religious maps pointing to aspects of the indescribable "infinite territory" that typical "religious" ones do. A simple carpenter can discover his "grains of sand". I believe that is why Jesus is depicted as one.

But you avoided my earlier question. Are you telling us now, the main Christian map is not accurate? And a man can come to the Father without Jesus? In contradiction to.....

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Have you changed your mind?

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

How would you know what other maps point to without studying those maps?
I have. The ones I studied and practiced, do. But that territory is infinite and not all maps concentrate on the same local within that territory

Conscience, love, compassion, humility and stillness however are present as a divine "axis" of consciousness that permeates that territory in all locals.

But alongside interwoven with the "divine" is another axis of "lack of consciousness", randomness and disorder.

It has been my experience the "territory" I have asked you to speak to, is so vast, many maps may be derived from a deep understanding of what reality is.

Being directly aware of "Tathātā", or the Buddhist "suchness of things", can give powerful insights , not always verbal. When anyone gets really good at something, much becomes possible. The universe in a grain of sand, may be more instructive than endless debate about maps.

Therefore, there are non-religious maps pointing to aspects of the indescribable "infinite territory" that typical "religious" ones do. A simple carpenter can discover his "grains of sand". I believe that is why Jesus is depicted as one.

But you avoided my earlier question. Are you telling us now, the main Christian map is not accurate? And a man can come to the Father without Jesus? In contradiction to.....


Have you changed your mind?

I didn't avoid your earlier question. I answered it by telling you it was the wrong question. Of course, if you're not interested in God's redemptive plan for mankind, in his forgiveness, in being reconciled to Him and receiving the gift of eternal life...then certainly other "maps" will take you to a very different kind of territory. But what all those other maps will tell you, in one way or another, is that man can "redeem" himself by doing x, y, z, etc; yet scripture says that no man redeem himself or ransom himself for the price is too costly (Ps 49:7-8). In other words, the sin debt is beyond human reach. Just so that you should know...

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I mean...I suppose there's a remote possibility that aliens could be the cause of all our physical and mental maladies. Or even that such things are merely illusions.

Star Trek: the Next Generation, Season 4, Episode 13, "Devil's Due" An alien tries to enslave an entire world by using advanced technology to pretend to be a god.

Clark's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708702/?ref_=ttep_ep13

[Light]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

As you say, this is only your "opinion", and this presupposes that you acknowledge that you might be wrong...as all "opinions" run the risk of being. It is also possible that you are wrong, and Actor is right. Or, God forbid...BOXCAR! My question is...since all religious belief (or disbelief) is mere "opinion"...should we defend our opinions as persistently as we often do? Isn't it better to just admit that we aren't sure about any of these religious "opinions" of ours?

There is a certain amount of what I say that is opinion such as you quoting me as to the purpose of life. Yes I could be wrong about that and maybe we are actually a test tube creation of higher extraterrestrial beings who created within us this quest for God who watch us and get a good laugh. You cannot disprove that either.

It is hard to say where opinion ends and reality begins because a lot of times our opinions become our reality.

I ask myself, what is the ultimate thing I value in life and the answer that is without doubt or opinion is Love. I think that would be most people's answer. I have always told people, when you are on your deathbed and look back in your life, the love connections are the only ones that will be worth anything to you at that point.

This is where God comes in because I don't look at God as an authoritarian religious ruler. I have had some major heartbreaks in my life and I know you have too. Those heartbreaks are always on my mind, like torture sometimes, but less painful as time goes by. And I realize I am heartbroken over a few people in the course of my life that I would die for. They were/are incredibly beautiful to me. And then I realize how much more amazing and beautiful the one who created them must be. And he created within me the ability to experience such incredible love and beauty that no words can touch. But I can't see him/her/it nor hold him/her/it like the physical people in my life.

Maybe I am fooling myself but I have recently begun to feel Love within when I meditate that is not connected to a person place or thing. And as I have stated before I have been meditating for over 40 years. You could say, well you are probably fooling yourself that God is loving you and that is God's love because you are so heartbroken from things in your past. But here's the catch.

I'm the one who's been the skeptic most of my life and don't buy into the "fool yourself" mentality. I'll go into meditation all grumpy and non believing that this love is real mumbling to myself "I never get a break". Yet I come out of meditation with a better attitude and believe me i was in no mood to fool myself into feeling better. I wanted to and expected to stay miserable. I may not even experience anything in particular in a meditation session. But something happens during it that changes my attitude and my outlook on life so that I'm not so grumpy. And it all happened without me realizing what was going on.

So through experiences like this I know, that's not my mere opinion. That there is an inner love and it's real. At which point I remember Jesus's "The Kingdom of Heaven is within You". And I realize he knows what he is talking about. I've never been the type of person to just buy what someone says, so I totally understand you and Actor for your Atheism. You shouldn't buy into Boxcar's drivel of God being this celestial terrorist who loves to roast you in Hell and only loves you if you love him BS.

My standards have always been that I need to experience what God/Jesus are talking about. Or if some author writes something profound or a spiritual master says something, I too require proof. I'm not just going to be a good Sunday school boy.

But as I'm sure you know, (and boxcar will reprimand me for it) there are an infinite number of ways that one comes to find God within themselves. Doesn't have to be through religion. All is within you right now, waiting to be discovered. Nothing else required. Just you going within you.

When I was 6yo, I was taken to a movie and I always remembered this one line from it. The "wise one" told the "seeker" "the first door is where it cannot be seen". Seemed like an interesting riddle at the time but as I grew older I realized it is the state of man's quest for self enlightenment and why he has such a hard time accessing it. Too tricky.

But I finally solved that riddle and found that to be the truth, not an opinion. Of course that door is found within your heart. I looked for years and found nothing there. What I mean is that there was nothing profound,nothing anyone else would not see when they looked in their heart. But now I see something profound is appearing more and more.

The reason I couldn't see it before and now I do is because of a different state of consciousness.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I didn't avoid your earlier question. I answered it by telling you it was the wrong question. Of course, if you're not interested in God's redemptive plan for mankind, in his forgiveness, in being reconciled to Him and receiving the gift of eternal life...then certainly other "maps" will take you to a very different kind of territory. But what all those other maps will tell you, in one way or another, is that man can "redeem" himself by doing x, y, z, etc; yet scripture says that no man redeem himself or ransom himself for the price is too costly (Ps 49:7-8). In other words, the sin debt is beyond human reach. Just so that you should know...

I will ask it again.

Is Jesus the ONLY way to the Father? Your literal interpretation says so.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

When it comes down to it, all maladies, physical and mental alike, are due to man's spiritual condition. For example, when Christ returns to restore all things -- to restore the earth back to its original pristine, paradisaical condition, there will no longer be any pain, suffering, sorrow, tears, death, etc. The reason for this is that all God's saints will have the same glorified, resurrected bodies as Christ which will make them also spiritually perfect -- as holy and righteous as God is. In short, sin is a spiritual disease that affects the entire person -- mind, body, soul and heart.

Originally Posted by hcap

Toothaches? Hemorrhoids, hangnails?

Originally Posted by Actor

Myopia, pimples, premature ejaculation!

The inability to be honest with oneself, and pretending to know about things not known, using 2,000 year old rumors to support that pretending.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I will ask it again.

Is Jesus the ONLY way to the Father? Your literal interpretation says so.

Of course! What do you think: God is like Rome and all paths lead to Him?

1 John 2:23
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
NIV

And,

John 5:22-23
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
NIV

And,

John 10:30
30 I and the Father are one."
NIV

And,

John 14:8-11a
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me;
NIV

And,

John 15:23
23 He who hates me hates my Father as well.
NIV

And,

1 John 2:22
22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist — he denies the Father and the Son.
NIV

And finally,

2 John 9
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
NIV

Therefore, the Son of God is the only way to the Father because He and the Father are one! Read Isaiah 9 some day.