Religion III

[Light]

Originally Posted by boxcar

But he [God] doesn't need us.

Your parents don't need you either. But they love you. Likewise God loves us more than our parents do.

Originally Posted by boxcar

Furthermore, the vast majority of the world are practicing atheists...

Obvious lie. Wikipedia says only 14% of the world's population are Atheists.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You didn't address the issues I raised. The story clearly implies that Nan-in was more knowledgeable that the professor, so how did he get his knowledge. On what was his knowledge based if not on opinion, conjecture, theories, pipe dreams, wishful thinking, etc.

I asked you to re-read it

...and go to a master roshi. Who learned from his roshi, and so on, the nuts and bolts of Zen.

Ultimately, it is taught directly as other teacher/pupil interactions. However that is NOT the point of the koan.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Your parents don't need you either. But they love you. Likewise God loves us more than our parents do.

So, you were an unwanted child? You were a mistake?

Obvious lie. Wikipedia says only 14% of the world's population are Atheists.

Learn to read. I said practically speaking the vast majority of the world are atheists (including very many religious people) because most of us live our lives as though there was no God. In fact, Jesus describes this kind of situation quite nicely to religious people -- Israel! Learn from his parable.

Luke 19:11-27
11 And while they were listening to these things, He went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, "A certain nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. 13 "And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas, and said to them, 'Do business with this until I come back.' 14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.' 15 "And it came about that when he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him in order that he might know what business they had done. 16 "And the first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.' 17 "And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, be in authority over ten cities.' 18 "And the second came, saying, 'Your mina, master, has made five minas.' 19 "And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.' 20 "And another came, saying, 'Master, behold your mina, which I kept put away in a handkerchief; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you did not sow.' 22 "He said to him, 'By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down, and reaping what I did not sow? 23'Then why did you not put the money in the bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?' 24 "And he said to the bystanders, 'Take the mina away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.' 25 "And they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas already.' 26 "I tell you, that to everyone who has shall more be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 27 "But these ENEMIES of mine, who did not want me to REIGN over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
NASB

Since this was true of most of God's chosen people Israel (most of them as religious as they come), how much more of the vast majority of the world's people whom God has not chosen to be his people? Because the world at large is an enemy of God, most people want to live autonomously. They want no part of God or his Christ reigning in their hearts. Therefore, in a practical sense, most of the world is atheistic.

So, your lame argument that people "need" God is thoroughly unbiblical and doesn't square with reality here in the real world. The vast majority of people want nothing to do with God because they hate him. It's the natural, sinful disposition of the human heart.

Ps 2:1-3:12

1 Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One. 3 "Let us break their chains," they say,"and throw off their fetters."

4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;the Lord scoffs at them. 5 Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6 "I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill."

7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8 Ask of me,and I will make the nations your inheritance,the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will rule them with an iron scepter;you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

10 Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way,for his wrath can flare up in a moment.Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
NIV

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

I asked you to re-read it

Ultimately, it is taught directly as other teacher/pupil interactions. However that is NOT the point of the koan.

I'm taught directly also -- from the Word of God.

Don't you know that the pen is mightier than the sword?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

I'm taught directly also -- from the Word of God.

Don't you know that the pen is mightier than the sword?

Do you always FULLY understand "the word of God", or are some times clearer than others? I am suggesting a way of moving closer and deeper.

I decided before I bid you adieu, not to hinder you. All I am saying is our own pride in THINKING we know, is often an obstacle to really knowing. That is the point of the Zen story.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Do you always FULLY understand "the word of God", or are some times clearer than others? I am suggesting a way of moving closer and deeper.

I decided before I bid you adieu, not to hinder you. All I am saying is our own pride in THINKING we know, is often an obstacle to really knowing. That is the point of the Zen story.

No, I do NOT fully understand the Word of God, nor will I ever in this life. Isn't this why a disciple is always in learn mode? Can a disciple of Christ ever be greater than his Master? Yet, in Buddhism, an adherent can become a "master". So, tell me: Who has the ego problem, a devout, pious disciple of Christ or the Buddhists who think they have arrived to the status of "master"?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

No, I do NOT fully understand the Word of God, nor will I ever in this life. Isn't this why a disciple is always in learn mode? Can a disciple of Christ ever be greater than his Master? Yet, in Buddhism, an adherent can become a "master". So, tell me: Who has the ego problem, a devout, pious disciple of Christ or the Buddhists who think they have arrived to the status of "master"?

There is no competition. Why do you think there is? Is a priest, a bishop a minister, a master or teacher? Please don't play word games

Both Christianity and Buddhism are only maps pointing to the territory. The wisdom of a roshi at some point, directs the student to pay attention to the territory, not to get caught up in the map. Zen teachers often say that Zen teachings are like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger is useful because of what it points us toward, not as an object of study for its own sake!

Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and almost all traditional ways are vehicles. Not the destination. Zen teachers warn their students not to gaze to intently at them or their finger pointing to the moon.

An even suggest.....

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

There is no competition. Why do you think there is? Is a priest, a bishop a minister, a master or teacher? Please don't play word games

Both Christianity and Buddhism are only maps pointing to the territory. The wisdom of a roshi at some point, directs the student to pay attention to the territory, not to get caught up in the map. Zen teachers often say that Zen teachings are like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger is useful because of what it points us toward, not as an object of study for its own sake!

Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and almost all traditional ways are vehicles. Not the destination. Zen teachers warn their students not to gaze to intently at them or their finger pointing to the moon.

An even suggest.....

Yeah...but...there are those "riding around" in those "vehicles" who think they have arrived. This is true of Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, and sadly even within Protestantism. I know and understand much in the bible, and at the same time I know how much I don't understand.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Yeah...but...there are those "riding around" in those "vehicles" who think they have arrived. This is true of Buddhism, Islam, Catholicism, and sadly even within Protestantism. I know and understand much in the bible, and at the same time I know how much I don't understand.

Finally. I agree.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Finally. I agree.

See...that wasn't so hard, was it?

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

See...that wasn't so hard, was it?

If you had recognized biblical Christianity was only the "map", or vehicle 17 years ago, we would have agreed much earlier. Not to mention if various religious wars over their specific make and brand of vehicle, were as silly as saying "my chevy is much superior to your ford", countless lives would have been spared.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

If you had recognized biblical Christianity was only the "map", or vehicle 17 years ago, we would have agreed much earlier. Not to mention if various religious wars over their specific make and brand of vehicle, were as silly as saying "my chevy is much superior to your ford", countless lives would have been spared.

If you had recognized 17 years ago that with me it's never been about the religion of Christianity per se but entirely about God's revelation to mankind and the gift of the Holy Spirit (eternal life) that he graciously bestowed upon me.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

If you had recognized 17 years ago that with me it's never been about the religion of Christianity per se but entirely about God's revelation to mankind and the gift of the Holy Spirit (eternal life) that he graciously bestowed upon me.

I did say religions endless bickering,

were as silly as saying "my chevy is much superior to your ford"

Are you a used car salesman? You sure sound like one

[boxcar]

I'm currently studying intently (for about the third time in my life) the "mysterious" and "enigmatic" Book of Revelation. I'm in chapter 7 that speaks to the judgements of the Seven Seals. I'm using as one of my guides a series of sermons/studies by pastor Sam Storms who has a blog online. He made the following exceedingly profound and paradoxical observation with respect to God's infinite love for his people and his holy and simultaneous hatred for all that is evil and, therefore, worthy of his wrath. And now I quote:

The fact that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will witness a simultaneous outpouring of both divine wrath and saving mercy strikes many as inconceivable. But it isn’t mercy to which people voice their objections. It is the notion that God is angry with enemies of the gospel and will hold them eternally accountable for their rejection of Jesus Christ. The Revelation given to John, however, cannot be ignored. There is a “great day” (Rev. 6:17) when the “wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16) will be seen and felt, and I would be in utter dereliction of my duty as a teacher of God’s Word if I conveniently skipped over this vitally important truth just so that some among you might feel better.

I strongly suspect that opposition to the concept of divine wrath is likely due to a misunderstanding of what it is. Wrath is not the loss of self-control or the irrational and capricious outburst of anger. Divine wrath is not to be thought of as a celestial bad temper or God lashing out at those who “rub him the wrong way.”

Divine wrath, as it is described in our passage today, is righteous antagonism toward all that is unholy. It is the revulsion of God's character to that which is a violation of God's will.

And I say this without the slightest hint of contradiction, that there is a very real sense in which divine wrath is a function of divine love. God's wrath is his love for holiness and truth and justice. It is because God passionately loves purity and peace and perfection that he reacts angrily toward anything and anyone who defiles them. J. I. Packer explains:

"Would a God who took as much pleasure in evil as He did in good be a good God? Would a God who did not react adversely to evil in His world be morally perfect? Surely not. But it is precisely this adverse reaction to evil, which is a necessary part of moral perfection, that the Bible has in view when it speaks of God's wrath" (Knowing God, 136-37). (emphasis mine)

And then the bottom line:

And we must never forget that if we don’t believe that humans deserve to have God visit upon them the painful consequences of their sin, we empty God’s forgiveness of all meaning. If there is no punishment that sin warrants, then God should overlook our transgressions. Forgiveness is real and precious and glorious only because our sin has betrayed us into a situation in which justice demands that God inflict upon us the most serious and eternal consequences. But he has instead visited that judgment on his Son, our Savior, Jesus Christ. That is the glory of saving grace, that the infinitely holy God who should take action against us, instead has taken action for us.

https://www.samstorms.org/all-articl...aded-nightmare

Obviously, from what has been said above, God's sacrificial love for his elect not only doesn't contradict his eternal wrath against all unrepentant sinners, but His holy love and righteous indignation actually complement each another.

[boxcar]

And independent movie maker (not of the Hollywood ilk) is in the process of making a series about Christ. It's called "The Chosen". And this can viewed on YouTube or from virtually any streaming platform if you download the app Vid Angel from the Google store. (I chose this latter route since the quality of the movie is better when viewed this way.)

Much of the series consists of the "backstory" pertaining to the main characters; however, as the story applies to the ministry and teaching of Christ, it sticks very close to scripture.

For a "low budget" production, the acting is very good. The writer's mission is to get this video expression of the Gospel out to the entire world -- literally! Apparently, the app can connect with a very large number of streaming platforms around the world, which makes this production unprecedented.