Opinion being asked

[wiretowire68]

This is a question for the most experienced most sucessful handicapper on here to a person who just came in off the street to watch a horse race?

Last year I was doing some trip handicapping, taking the time to go over horses trips I was handicapping for an upcoming tournament I was playing in. In my description of a turf sprint, I came across the horse I was looking at his trip was pretty standard in terms of pace, his ground, his speed, the ride etc. However, would anyone on here use the word "BULLY" to describe a horse with traffic in front of him but makes his own room as they are slowing down. I have watched alot of races in my days..and I could say in a million stretch duals, not only is the right word but many many horses have no problem doing this naturally to get where they are going and when they are urged and decide it is time to run to where daylight is and I want to get ahead of the others.. Please chime in.

[wiretowire68]

I had a disagreement with a fellow handicapper using this word.. and I was a bit shocked....anybody here think I am wrong...if so please tell me so...truthfully. Otherwise I will quit the game right now.

[thaskalos]

Whether the horse "bullied" its way through, or "pushed" its way through...what's the difference? Isn't this game complicated enough without us getting caught up in the terminology that we use? I don't think such things are worth talking much about. In my own "trip handicapping", I use terms that only make sense to me...and that's how I think it should be. My handicapping is for ME...and not for anybody else.

[elhelmete]

Originally Posted by wiretowire68

I had a disagreement with a fellow handicapper using this word.. and I was a bit shocked....anybody here think I am wrong...if so please tell me so...truthfully. Otherwise I will quit the game right now.

If a semantic difference in word use is what gets you to quit...I mean??

I think bullied is a term which, if I saw it in the official chart comments, would imply the move was borderline foul-worthy.

But in my own personal notes? a) it would just mean a strong move, and b) who cares. Nobody gets to read my diary.

[wiretowire68]

thanks.. It was not meant to be the be all to end all. It was just a word to describe a really aggressive move, many moves in the stretch and bumping and pushing happens all the way around the track.. just talk to a jockey. I was not looking for anything negative here, it was just an ask on whether using it as an agressive move, trip note or drf or any other past performance data has used the word.. I think it is an excellent word to describe that was the point. I guess I should have notated that the horse put his head down and plowed through the field like a lawnmower going through the grass.

[thaskalos]

If the word is useful to you, then keep using it. Your trip notes are YOUR business...and nobody else's.

[andicap]

Originally Posted by wiretowire68

This is a question for the most experienced most sucessful handicapper on here to a person who just came in off the street to watch a horse race?

Last year I was doing some trip handicapping, taking the time to go over horses trips I was handicapping for an upcoming tournament I was playing in. In my description of a turf sprint, I came across the horse I was looking at his trip was pretty standard in terms of pace, his ground, his speed, the ride etc. However, would anyone on here use the word "BULLY" to describe a horse with traffic in front of him but makes his own room as they are slowing down. I have watched alot of races in my days..and I could say in a million stretch duals, not only is the right word but many many horses have no problem doing this naturally to get where they are going and when they are urged and decide it is time to run to where daylight is and I want to get ahead of the others.. Please chime in.

Are you a big fan of Teddy Roosevelt?

[Stevecsd2]

The man who got me into horse racing, Jim Lorenz, talked about this kind of behavior. Horses are herd animals. And in the herd in the wild there are usually one or two "alpha" horses who lead the pack. In a race, if there is a strong alpha horse it could do this, push his/her way to the lead. You can see it in some horses recent races where they are number 1 or number 2 throughout the race. If the rest of the horses in the race are in the same or similar class, they will most likely win. You do have to be careful if that horse is moving up in class. They may not be able to do that in a higher class.
This could also be an older horse with more experience racing with younger ones. They would be the dominant one in the pack.

[Robert Fischer]

I think it's interesting.

Not sure whether it's a factor that hits a ton of races in a big way, but it's a relatively unique perspective.

[46zilzal]

One of the MOST FRUSTRATING things about turf racing is that almost the entire field makes their move Late, in the 3rd and 4th quarters on tracks where there is not enough room for that run.

Look at the big turf courses around the world and the widen at the top of ht elate to accommodate those movers.

Knowing that Santa Anita's turf stretch was both short and not that wide(being inside the mile main course) That applied knowledge had me ELIMINATE Dancing Brave in the 1986 B.C. Turf and throw support to the good three year old Manila.

[jay68802]

I am pretty sure the term "bullied" was considered a way to take a shot at some Stewards by a race caller. Sort of used to point out an obvious part of the race that should have been looked at.

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by Stevecsd2

The man who got me into horse racing, Jim Lorenz, talked about this kind of behavior. Horses are herd animals. And in the herd in the wild there are usually one or two "alpha" horses who lead the pack. In a race, if there is a strong alpha horse it could do this, push his/her way to the lead. You can see it in some horses recent races where they are number 1 or number 2 throughout the race. If the rest of the horses in the race are in the same or similar class, they will most likely win. You do have to be careful if that horse is moving up in class. They may not be able to do that in a higher class.
This could also be an older horse with more experience racing with younger ones. They would be the dominant one in the pack.

Steve, nice going! You’ve articulated the perfect response! It’s unfortunate how many players forget or even ignore the fact that they’re playing a game where the participants are flesh and blood with inherent genes to run specific ways when they’re in good mental and physical condition. They are not machines!

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

One of the MOST FRUSTRATING things about turf racing is that almost the entire field makes their move Late, in the 3rd and 4th quarters on tracks where there is not enough room for that run.

Look at the big turf courses around the world and the widen at the top of ht elate to accommodate those movers.

Apparently, you’ve never played the turf racing in Hong Kong because your comment about being frustrated in how turf horses perform during the course of a race certainly doesn’t hold water at either Happy Valley or Sha Tin.
.
.

[wiretowire68]

The mention regarding being upset at a stewart for an inquiry/objection/disqualification it was not. I do not want to mention names in terms of trip handicapping, I would say I was offended because although many trips look the same they are not, a head on view of a race clearly gives the viewer an excellent understanding of how much horses move about from side to side when they are being urged and whipped and startled into moving faster because the bucket will be full of oats when I get there. The comment was a disagreement with a prominent person who disagreed with the word when a course who was in between horses approximately 1 to a lenght back in early stretch at Del Mar and Joe Bravo began to coax and urged and the horse being a bit bigger maybe 5-4 year old not only used his frame to make the room to get through and speed but did so in a way that intimidated the two other horses not to reingage thus the term bully..bully like many words in the English language can have many connations from subtle to the extreme, too me when a horse does not have complete room path but enough path to create seperation to get through particularly when he has the momentum and the other horse(s) did not, then as far as trip note...for this particular race was correct and as I have said, this happens at least 1-2 a days across North American thoroughbred horse racing. The gentleman with whom the discussion took place with seemed either put off by the remark or was pissed because he did not think of it himself. Either way...just conversation. oh...as far as mentioning names, the company is Trip Notes and Benny Southstreet

[46zilzal]

I wrote an extensive paper on herd activity as a junior on my way to a degree in Zoology.

The concept MOST have about it is 100% wrong: it takes MULTIPLE confrontations, over long period of time, within an enclosed geographic area to show up to any degree. Anything else is a figment of imagination.

IT CAN NOT occur in the short time horse are with one another from the paddock to the race, NEVER

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by 46zilzal

I wrote an extensive paper on herd activity as a junior on my way to a degree in Zoology.

The concept MOST have about it is 100% wrong: it takes MULTIPLE confrontations, over long period of time, within an enclosed geographic area to show up to any degree. Anything else is a figment of imagination.

IT CAN NOT occur in the short time horse are with one another from the paddock to the race, NEVER

Interesting take. Makes me curious as to why horseplayers would be so wrong about it. Other than the fact most of us don't pursue zoology degrees.

Maybe "herd activity" needs to be defined. A longer time frame for individual horses to sort themselves into a pecking order makes sense for a distinct set of animals, but in the process of being put in a race, what do we call the behavior of horses unfamiliar with each other when they "battle", "bully", savage or otherwise display competitive traits during the run?

It's my opinion that humans (pack animals) personify many animals, including our favorite pet species like cats, dogs and ponies. We observe behavior in groups of animals, and automatically assume that the herd/pack model may apply, because certain aspects of what we see translates to our own experiences. We also assume that our pets "think" when in fact their cognitive abilities are open for debate.

On the other hand, doesn't a horse have a brain the size of a walnut or so? Not sure if that accounts for them taking so long to determine their hierarchy or if that's an argument against that theory.