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Old 09-07-2018, 04:22 AM   #16
v j stauffer
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Originally Posted by dilanesp View Post
The fact that suspensions are never served at prestige meets is complete corruption. There is no excuse for it and no other professional sport would tolerate it. For instance, when Tom Brady was suspended for alleged involvement in deflating footballs, the commissioner's office didn't allow him to time an appeal so that it would be served in pre-season games. Same with corked bat suspensions in baseball-- they don't get served in spring training. If your team's in a pennant race, too bad. The Black Sox were suspended in the middle of a pennant race in 1920.

Every racing official who tolerates this is corrupt, doesn't care about the integrity of the sport, and should be removed by the appropriate regulatory agency. And every rule that permits this should be repealed.

The vast, vast majority of suspensions are based on conduct within a race, where the only relevant evidence is the various videotapes of the race and whatever statements are given to the stewards by the riders. There is no basis whatsoever for a long appeal. Appeals should take a day.

And there's also no reason to stay every suspension pending appeal. In the courts I practice, the standard default rule is that you DON'T get a stay when you lose a case or motion. It starts to run. There are plenty of people in jail right now while they appeal their convictions.

The stewards suspend you, that should be it. It starts that minute. If the rider can get it overturned by the racing commission the next day, then he or she can ride again. Otherwise, they serve it.

And the "designated race rule" is also pure corruption and should be eliminated. You get suspended 2 days before the BC Classic? Fine. You lose the mount. Don't want to lose the mount? Should have thought of that before you violated the rules.

That's how it works in every other profession. If a lawyer gets suspended by their state bar, they don't get to argue their Supreme Court appeal next week under the "designated case rule". If a doctor gets suspended by the medical board, they don't get to perform heart surgery the next week under the "designated procedure rule".

The whole thing is corrupt, and it goes a long way to illustrating what the regulatory problems are with horse racing.
Several of the rules are designed to protect owners.

For instance the designated race rule. Horse's and jockey's who will team in a Graded Stakes have been pointing to that race for weeks, if not months. It could unfairly damage the owner if forced to use a different rider in what could easily be the most important race of that horses career.

In California if a jock chooses to ride a designated race on a Saturday he will have to serve the following Saturday not the next calendar day. If he rides two or more designated races he has to serve an additional "like" day.

The reason why days usually start about a week after the penalty isn't to give the rider time to appeal or get an injunction. It's once again to protect the owners. Let's say you have Flavien Prat on your horse. In that race there are 12 in the body and 4 AE's. That's potentially 16 riders who have been engaged. If that race has already been drawn and you force Prat off that owner might very well end up with Joe Schmoe the 17th best rider in the room. That would be grossly unfair to them.

When I was a Steward one year at Los Alamitos we gave a guy days for a careless ride on closing day at Del Mar. I first thought to make him serve the days at a "similar" meeting which would be the opening 3 days of Santa Anita. I decided against that because I felt that would appear to be a slap in the face of Los Alamitos. It wasn't for me to say Santa Anita was bigger and more important. IMO that would have been disrespectful of Los Al.
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Old 09-07-2018, 11:01 AM   #17
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Several of the rules are designed to protect owners.

For instance the designated race rule. Horse's and jockey's who will team in a Graded Stakes have been pointing to that race for weeks, if not months. It could unfairly damage the owner if forced to use a different rider in what could easily be the most important race of that horses career.

In California if a jock chooses to ride a designated race on a Saturday he will have to serve the following Saturday not the next calendar day. If he rides two or more designated races he has to serve an additional "like" day.

The reason why days usually start about a week after the penalty isn't to give the rider time to appeal or get an injunction. It's once again to protect the owners. Let's say you have Flavien Prat on your horse. In that race there are 12 in the body and 4 AE's. That's potentially 16 riders who have been engaged. If that race has already been drawn and you force Prat off that owner might very well end up with Joe Schmoe the 17th best rider in the room. That would be grossly unfair to them.

When I was a Steward one year at Los Alamitos we gave a guy days for a careless ride on closing day at Del Mar. I first thought to make him serve the days at a "similar" meeting which would be the opening 3 days of Santa Anita. I decided against that because I felt that would appear to be a slap in the face of Los Alamitos. It wasn't for me to say Santa Anita was bigger and more important. IMO that would have been disrespectful of Los Al.
Vic, with all respect, those are rationalizations.

1. Owners of good horses can find other riders. Happens all the time anyway when riders get hurt. Indeed, sometimes they have to find a rider on 10 minutes notice.

And most races in California do not have 16 entrants. We run many 6 and 7 horse fields, and some even shorter. Plus, good riders like Stevens and Smith take races off. So a lot of times finding a decent replacement is no problem.

And before California had a designated race rule, Dave Erb subbed for Shoemaker, the best rider in America, when Swaps met Determine in the 1955 Californian. Shoe was suspended. Swaps ran a world record with Erb up. The world didn't end.

If the owners are hurt, they can tell their riders not to get suspended. It just creates more incentive.

Owners are hurt by the absolute insurer rule too. You still have it.

2. Hurting the feelings of track owners is less important than discouraging unsafe riding. So Ed Allred gets offended that his minor league meeting is called what it is. He's a rich man and a grown up. He can take it.

Last edited by dilanesp; 09-07-2018 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:09 PM   #18
v j stauffer
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Vic, with all respect, those are rationalizations.

1. Owners of good horses can find other riders. Happens all the time anyway when riders get hurt. Indeed, sometimes they have to find a rider on 10 minutes notice.

And most races in California do not have 16 entrants. We run many 6 and 7 horse fields, and some even shorter. Plus, good riders like Stevens and Smith take races off. So a lot of times finding a decent replacement is no problem.

And before California had a designated race rule, Dave Erb subbed for Shoemaker, the best rider in America, when Swaps met Determine in the 1955 Californian. Shoe was suspended. Swaps ran a world record with Erb up. The world didn't end.

If the owners are hurt, they can tell their riders not to get suspended. It just creates more incentive.

Owners are hurt by the absolute insurer rule too. You still have it.

2. Hurting the feelings of track owners is less important than discouraging unsafe riding. So Ed Allred gets offended that his minor league meeting is called what it is. He's a rich man and a grown up. He can take it.
Dilan, I was simply saying the reasoning behind the rules. As far as finding another rider for a Stake. Of course someone will be open. But that horse and rider have prepped as a team. Very damaging to the owner to force him to change when he did nothing wrong.
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Old 09-07-2018, 12:16 PM   #19
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Would be nice if they put in a rule or two to protect the CUSTOMERS. The ones who put millions of dollars through the windows everyday.
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Old 09-07-2018, 02:47 PM   #20
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Dilan, I was simply saying the reasoning behind the rules. As far as finding another rider for a Stake. Of course someone will be open. But that horse and rider have prepped as a team. Very damaging to the owner to force him to change when he did nothing wrong.
Is there any statistical evidence that top horses are hurt by rider substitutions? We see lots of examples, 1955 Californian, 1989 BC Classic, 1996 Belmont, 2018 Pacific Classic- where it hasn't hurt one bit.
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Old 09-07-2018, 03:20 PM   #21
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Would be nice if they put in a rule or two to protect the CUSTOMERS. The ones who put millions of dollars through the windows everyday.
Sorry Tom, this is what they think of guys like you and me

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Old 09-07-2018, 03:57 PM   #22
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Would be nice if they put in a rule or two to protect the CUSTOMERS. The ones who put millions of dollars through the windows everyday.
What new rules would you like to see that would protect the customers?
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:38 PM   #23
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Sorry Tom, this is what they think of guys like you and me

https://youtu.be/3-l_Ofo7gNE
Someone has to put the SPEND in expendable. For less appreciation than the other dirty jobs.
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Old 09-07-2018, 05:43 PM   #24
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What new rules would you like to see that would protect the customers?
Optional refund would be nice. For example, if a horse loses a rider and runs in front for half the damn race effecting the outcome, bettors should get a refund if they want. Yet if they win they can keep the winnings. Track is responsible to honor the pool. Customer is always right everywhere else.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:20 PM   #25
v j stauffer
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Optional refund would be nice. For example, if a horse loses a rider and runs in front for half the damn race effecting the outcome, bettors should get a refund if they want. Yet if they win they can keep the winnings. Track is responsible to honor the pool. Customer is always right everywhere else.
The starter would be feeling a bit of pressure with that one. Couple of "loose horse" refunds and he starts costing the association some serious $$$. What would you like us to say to the guy that stays in and his 6-1 winner pays $5.20? Next.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:41 PM   #26
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What new rules would you like to see that would protect the customers?
Oh, I guess consistent enforcement, and when riders need to be punish, do it like it means something. Serve NOW, not when it fits their schedules.

the very idea of three stooges in a booth control the fate of millions of dollars of wagered money is preposterous in this day an age. Racing is in the dark ages.
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Old 09-09-2018, 08:37 PM   #27
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[QUOTE Customer is always right everywhere else.[/QUOTE]


I've been a salesman for over 40 years, and the correct quote is "The customer is not always right--but the customer is always the customer."

What this means to me is that a business may have a rule that a customer must return a purchased item within a time period or with a receipt and if a customer brings the item back after stated time period or without receipt the business may refund the money for good relations, or not, but explain in a professional manner why not.


If the customer demands a refund because "the customer is always right," a good business practice is to explain the rules as they existed at time of purchase in a clear professional way.
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Old 09-09-2018, 08:43 PM   #28
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Oh, I guess consistent enforcement, and when riders need to be punish, do it like it means something. Serve NOW, not when it fits their schedules.

the very idea of three stooges in a booth control the fate of millions of dollars of wagered money is preposterous in this day an age. Racing is in the dark ages.
How would you enforce the rules differently?
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Old 09-09-2018, 09:04 PM   #29
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Topic for a whole new thread, but in a Reader's Digest version, Stewards should not talk to the jockeys involved at. Right off the bat, jocks who do not speak good English are at a huge disadvantage.

Using today's technology, I can see a whole radical new concept of policing racing, using technology and "blind officialiating" as opposed to blind officials. I may start a new thread tomorrow and invite suggestions - too late tonight, time to grill my steaks and chill my beers.
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Old 09-09-2018, 09:19 PM   #30
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How about just enforce the rules. If a jockey is suspended, he or she does not ride. The jockey does not get to serve the suspension when it fits his or her schedule. If a trainer is suspended, all the horses in his care at the time of the infraction are not raced. The suspensions are for rules violations that affect the betting public, and in these cases, what happens with the owners, trainers, and jockeys is not, and should not be considered.
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