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Old 03-21-2017, 10:40 AM   #556
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How?

No. Sin is thought crime. It is the disobedience of a supreme master for whose existence there is absolutely no evidence. Ergo, the supreme master does not exist. Ergo, sin does not exist.
Huh? So sin exists and doesn't exist? You've gone and done it again.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:58 AM   #557
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I've been wanting to ask if you are or have ever been trained as a Jesuit...?
There are some here on this thread that have a significant religious education and are highly literate...I count you as one of those posters...Do you mind if I ask what your credentials are?...My intuition informs me that you may indeed be a Jesuit, am I wrong here...?
I just saw your post. In answer to your question, I have never been trained as a Jesuit or educated in a Jesuit school.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:26 PM   #558
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I just saw your post. In answer to your question, I have never been trained as a Jesuit or educated in a Jesuit school.
OK, thanks for reply...you appear to possess a significant religious education.....are you then self- taught or perhaps a Franciscan or belong to another order....if you wish not to divulge this.....I understand, it just helps me to research and understand your positions, theologically speaking...
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:52 PM   #559
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OK, thanks for reply...you appear to possess a significant religious education.....are you then self- taught or perhaps a Franciscan or belong to another order....if you wish not to divulge this.....I understand, it just helps me to research and understand your positions, theologically speaking...

Not part of any order, just an ordinary layperson. I am not a theologian nor a trained apologists. My understanding of the theology I embrance is due to the guidance of the Holy Spirit during my search for spiritual truth.
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Old 03-21-2017, 01:02 PM   #560
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Not part of any order, just an ordinary layperson. I am not a theologian nor a trained apologists. My understanding of the theology I embrance is due to the guidance of the Holy Spirit during my search for spiritual truth.
I appreciate your search and your sharing with us here...I am working on how to be more positive in my communication with others, and accepting of the belief of others...thank you for your patience and openness...
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:09 PM   #561
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Neither would I, because both of us are not omniscient. If I knew the desired experience would be beneficial, I would allow my child to have the experience.
If I were part of a debate I might have a hard time arguing the position that allowing Adam and Eve to taste from the tree was beneficial to them. It certainly wasn't beneficial to the rest of us.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:20 PM   #562
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If I were part of a debate I might have a hard time arguing the position that allowing Adam and Eve to taste from the tree was beneficial to them. It certainly wasn't beneficial to the rest of us.
If I were part of the debate it would be impossible for me to argue the rationale behind God's moral test to only to interfere with Eve's free will.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:21 PM   #563
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Wrong. There is at least one poster on an atheist web site who has had an NDE and it did not change his beliefs one bit. I can give you a link if you want. I seriously doubt that this person is the only one.
Ok. You have one. I have thousands that back up my position.

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archi...hives_main.htm

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Want one? Any competent anesthesiologist can induce one.
That argues that consciousness is produced by the brain which nobody has been able to prove.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:04 PM   #564
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Ok. You have one. I have thousands that back up my position.

http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archi...hives_main.htm



That argues that consciousness is produced by the brain which nobody has been able to prove.
Made a lot of people think.

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Old 03-21-2017, 10:09 PM   #565
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Huh? So sin exists and doesn't exist? You've gone and done it again.
You're equivocating again. Defining something does not imply that it exists. All I've done is define it.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:12 PM   #566
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He is just constructing straw-man arguments, and twisting words because he could not give a cogent answer to my question regarding his quoting of Epicurus.
What do you want to know about Epicurus?
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:22 PM   #567
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But there is another law, also, that proves we're all sinners: The Law of Government.
The Declaration of Independence says "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Is the Declaration of Independence heresy?
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:26 PM   #568
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The Declaration of Independence says "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Is the Declaration of Independence heresy?
Five References to God in the Declaration of Independence

Jul 4, 2011


By Dr. Harold Pease


It always amazes me when otherwise intelligent people are unable to find evidence of God in our governing documents. The Declaration of Independence, the signing of which we commemorate July 4th, alone has five references to God—two in the first paragraph, one in the middle, and two in the last.
“When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.” Who is responsible for “the laws of nature” but God—certainly not man nor nature itself? From the “laws of nature” sprang an awareness of natural law (sometimes called common sense), understood by early philosophers to be a source of higher law that never changes. This was best explained by Cicero, a Roman politician, as early as the 1st Century B. C. —even predating the existence of Christianity when he wrote: “Nor may any other law override it, nor may it be repealed as a whole or in part… Nor is it one thing at Rome and another at Athens, one thing today and another tomorrow, but one eternal and unalterable law, that binds all nations forever.” Of “Nature’s God,” the second reference to deity is, of course, more explicit and needs no explanation.
The third reference to God is the word “creator” found in the second paragraph. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” This boldly identified our base for at least three unalienable rights as God, and the Founders identified this truth as self-evident. Any person endowed with common sense or reason would/could come to this conclusion.
So passionate were they with respect to these three “God-given rights” that such was identified as the purpose of government. “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”
Moreover, their right of revolution hinged upon the denial of these “God-given rights.” “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes… But when a long train of abuses and usurpations… evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government and to provide new Guards for their future security.” Once again, an appeal to natural law, which emanates from God, was noted and the loss of which always justifies revolution.
The fourth and fifth references to God are found in the last paragraph. The rightness of our cause was left to God as judge. “We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown…”
The fifth and last reference to God asks for his divine protection in our revolutionary course of action. “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”
There was no dissent noted with respect to these references to God and their placement or emphasis in this document by any of the participants then, nor should there be now.
Dr. Harold Pease is an expert on the United States Constitution. He has dedicated his career to studying the writings of the Founding Fathers and applying that knowledge to current events. He has taught history and political science from this perspective for over 25 years at Taft College.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:08 PM   #569
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Lots of people do not understand the true meaning of the word revolution....it means a returning to a previous state...NOT linear progress...or something radical and new...political revolutions return polities to the status quo ante...the colonies threw off the rule of kings for what...? For the rule of God...these cryptic references to the deity prove that the United States is a Theocracy...disguised as constitutional republic...."We...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world..." I wonder who THAT might be...

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Old 03-21-2017, 11:11 PM   #570
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Vigors, Please don't interrupt. Hold your thoughts and comments until Actor gives his reply. I'm interested in what he has to say....Thank you.
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