David Jacobson drop

[onefast99]

Originally Posted by cj

Right, but should it apply to animals? I think not. They have no say in the matter and pay the price.

I'd like to see claiming races eliminated. There are a lot of ways to do that and that would be a thread of its own, not going to get into it here. If you want to sell a horse, do it privately or publicly, but with a thorough vet inspection.

x-rays, bloodwork etc etc, to buy a 5k claimer knowing he/she is sound isn't something many do or would want to do. In the auto industry there is Carfax, it allows the buyer to see the service records of the vehicle from the time the dealer sold it. This could be done in our industry also. The one problem is keeping track of the "unknowns" which is those trainers and vets that cheat the system, those reports would need alot of warnings attached to them, those vets and trainers who have numerous warnings would be banned from running horses in claiming races unless they offered a limited "warranty" with the claim. It isn't as difficult as it may appear to have some sort of information system provided by an unbiased party.

[cj]

Originally Posted by Appy

Start that "thread of it's own".
Aren't claiming races the lone factor that keeps horse racing from being "the sport for ONLY kings"?

No. A horse that is worth $5,000 is worth $5,000 whether in for a claim or being sold privately.

I really don't have time to start a thread about that and actively contribute right now. Hopefully soon I will, beginning of the year very hectic work wise for me.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by pandy

His average over this 5 year period is 3 deaths per year. The petition would carry more weight if someone took the total number of starters that Jacobson had and then showed the averaged rate of his horse's fatal breakdowns as compared to the industry rate. Since he starts more horses, I'm not sure that 3 a year is more than average, which is around 2%. I believe he starts around 500 horses a year, which would put his average fatal breakdown rate below the industry average.

Any trainer that is in the claiming business and starts the most horses is probably going to have the most breakdowns.

I think that people are taking this one step further and they are not treating all breakdowns the same. In other words, if he has a horse who is winning 50k claimers with Beyers in the 90s and looking sharp and snappy on video and galloping out with zeal and then 4 weeks later he's in a 5k claimer at Suffolk showing rapidly declining figures.....which get handicappers to say "yikes, what's wrong" THATS what people have a problem with. The horse is obviously on a rapid form decline and yet, he's not giving the horse time to recover from whatever the problem might be that's causing a horse who was running snappy 90s to lackluster 50s (for example) and he's just jamming the horse in and even shipping the horse to a lower circuit when we all know the horse shouldn't be racing.

I think it would be shortsighted to just categorize all breakdowns the same and just look at starters vs breakdowns and get an average, all breakdowns need to be analyzed individually with each one's specific circumstances taken into consideration.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by pandy

I understand what you mean, but he is simply doing something that is A), legal, and B), has been done for decades by hundreds of trainers in both harness and thoroughbred racing, and probably quarter horse racing, although I don't follow that sport. That's how you play the claiming game. You claim a horse and once you think you've gotten as much out of it as you can you drop the horse down and hope someone claims it from you.

Jacbonson doesn't do that with his most successful claims. He rests the horse, then brings them back and keeps winning.

So if a person is morally bankrupt, we shouldn't call them out because other people are also morally bankrupt?

Are you saying its ok to treat the animals anyway you want as long as its "legal??

[Tom]

Give me some facts. Baffert had all of those horses die while they were in his care. Some trainers have dozens of drug positives...etc.

Point me to the petition for him and I will sign it, too.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

So if a person is morally bankrupt, we shouldn't call them out because other people are also morally bankrupt?

Are you saying its ok to treat the animals anyway you want as long as its "legal??

You can say whatever you want. First of all, you can't suspend a man's license because he drops his horses in class. C'mon, man.

Keep in mind, no one on here knows how he treats his horses. Many of his horses have held their form for long periods of time, indicating that he treats them pretty well.

But, my points were mainly directed at this petition this woman started against him. She said that x amount of his horses broke down over a 5 year period and states that as a reason why he should lose his license. But, she obviously has an agenda and she hates Jacobson, so she doesn't offer any comparisons. Based on what I read, it seems to me that his horses actually broke down at a lower rate than the industry average. He starts more horses than most people, they are mostly claimers, and naturally he is going to have some horses break down on the track. But, are they alarming numbers? I don't think so. I'm just trying to view this realistically and honestly.

Yes, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion means more if you can offer something to substantiate it.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by pandy

You can say whatever you want. First of all, you can't suspend a man's license because he drops his horses in class. C'mon, man.

Keep in mind, no one on here knows how he treats his horses. Many of his horses have held their form for long periods of time, indicating that he treats them pretty well.

But, my points were mainly directed at this petition this woman started against him. She said that x amount of his horses broke down over a 5 year period and states that as a reason why he should lose his license. But, she obviously has an agenda and she hates Jacobson, so she doesn't offer any comparisons. Based on what I read, it seems to me that his horses actually broke down at a lower rate than the industry average. He starts more horses than most people, they are mostly claimers, and naturally he is going to have some horses break down on the track. But, are they alarming numbers? I don't think so. I'm just trying to view this realistically and honestly.

Yes, you're entitled to your opinion, but your opinion means more if you can offer something to substantiate it.

But, my point was that the "industry average" accounts for ALL breakdowns, not specific breakdowns of 10 year old millionaires who deserve better. It accounts for sound horses who break down because of a bad spot on the track and it accounts for 10 year olds who one day are running in 50k claimers and then all of a sudden, show up at Suffolk for 5k.

Why lump all breakdowns into the same category? Why not analyze each breakdown individually and ask "did this have to happen and were there any warning signs"

[VeryOldMan]

pandy - I can't speak for others, but what particularly gets me about Jacobson is that he maneuvers to squeeze the last few drops out of the lemon on older horses who deserve better treatment for what they've given the sport. I realize they have "back class" or whatever you want to call it, but I see the old warriors treated like pieces of meat by Jacobson and it reminds me of the downside of the sport. My thread about Immortal Eyes got shut down last year, but IE is an example of a horse that deserved better than to be raced into the ground by Jacobson, and IE managed to escape only because some old connections bought him back. Saginaw wasn't so lucky, for example.

[pandy]

In some instances, like with saginaw, the horse was racing well and broke down. Should he have been retired? I know some racing fans want to see all horses stop racing at a younger age, but is that realistic, and what is that age?

[cj]

Originally Posted by pandy

In some instances, like with saginaw, the horse was racing well and broke down. Should he have been retired? I know some racing fans want to see all horses stop racing at a younger age, but is that realistic, and what is that age?

No, he was fine, sad but don't have a problem with that one. He is not the kind of horse I was talking about. He wasn't trying to dump him.

[VeryOldMan]

Originally Posted by cj

No, he was fine, sad but don't have a problem with that one. He is not the kind of horse I was talking about. He wasn't trying to dump him.

Can you give an example of the kind of horse you were talking about? Not busting on you - trying to advance the thread.

[Robert Fischer]

Guys, we have to take a good hard look in the mirror, at our game.

1. Our standard of Veterinarian screening is very poor.
- This is rather simple = horses shouldn't race unless they are healthy and sound. We must raise the standard. Whether a $100K claiming tag or a $4K claiming tag - the standards must remain high.

2. Our 'incentives' do not protect the Owners&Trainers.
- ??What? What we want to protect the Owners&Trainers for? Start with the horses right?? - The point here is that our current incentives encourage a game of musical chairs or "left holding the bag" with a horse.
You claim an unsound horse? You shouldn't be left holding the bag.

3. We must have a plan for unsound horses.
-Layoffs+re-evaluation, or Farm.
-Not acceptable to simply drop in class or circuit.


CJ said it best imo

Originally Posted by cj

Jacobson takes advantage of the antiquated claiming system and treats horses like commodities, not animals. It is the system that enables him. Getting rid of Jacobson would be a joke.

Just fix the system. ...

[cj]

Originally Posted by VeryOldMan

Can you give an example of the kind of horse you were talking about? Not busting on you - trying to advance the thread.

I don't know names off the top of my head, but there have been recent threads about some of the unfortunate ones. I'll search when I get time.

Don't get me wrong, Saginaw was sad. I think he might have broken down in a starter allowance where Jacobson was trying to get an easy purse, but it wasn't a dump job.

[Robert Fischer]

Trainer Joe Shmoe is running a horse higher than he belongs.

The horse is "eased".

A layoff ensues.

Now Joe Shmoe drops the horse to a more reasonable class.

**The guessing game**
Starring the Horse's Health as himself.
and "Joe Shmoe" as the avg. trainer
and "The Vulture" as the leading claiming trainer.


word gets out that the horse can still run.

Most trainers are afraid of the "eased + layoff + drop", and don't want to be left holding the bag, but The Vulture knows that he gets more performance from a horse than Joe Shmoe , and he knows how the claiming game works.

So The Vulture claims the horse, drops him to the lowest profitable class (generally about break-even if claimed + win), and now he's broken even.

Next, he knows that Joe Shmoe and the like are afraid to claim a horse they can only do worse with, and that other quality trainers want no part in this animal.
So he gets several races out of the horse and makes a decent profit.

Eventually the horse ages or his previous health issues resurface to the degree that he can only be competitive with a drop and ship move...

[Stillriledup]

.

As far as saginaw and Jacobson go, does anyone know what old timer Jacobson "did right by" and retired? Lets get a list of horses he's retired out of his barn and found a home for, he's certainly trained more horses than most people, so, you would think he has more "retirees" than most people.

Right?