W O W ! ! ! !

[Broad Brush]

After reading all of the comments here, I'm sure I am in for some
bashing.

Let me state this first: I think Arrogate is truly special!!!!

I am a huge fan of him and I also root for him because his sire
is one of my all-time favorites..............BUT:

I cannot and will not stand by quietly and watch this horse be placed
with the two Big Reds & Big Cy and thus be vaulted past such stars as:

Kelso, the Mighty Forego, Slew, The Bid & Dr Fager.

These horses did such great things and did them against horses
that were a lot more than Gun Runner & Shaman Ghost. It is just reality.

I am not insulting Arrogate in any way--just sticking up for these other
stars.


Let the bashing begin......

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Originally Posted by Broad Brush

After reading all of the comments here, I'm sure I am in for some
bashing.

Let me state this first: I think Arrogate is truly special!!!!

I am a huge fan of him and I also root for him because his sire
is one of my all-time favorites..............BUT:

I cannot and will not stand by quietly and watch this horse be placed
with the two Big Reds & Big Cy and thus be vaulted past such stars as:

Kelso, the Mighty Forego, Slew, The Bid & Dr Fager.

These horses did such great things and did them against horses
that were a lot more than Gun Runner & Shaman Ghost. It is just reality.

I am not insulting Arrogate in any way--just sticking up for these other
stars.


Let the bashing begin......

Tom Brady will never be as good or better than Joe Montana.

Michael Jordan will never be as good or better than Dr. J.

Wayne Gretzky will never be as good or better than Bobby Orr.

We all love our heroes. But at some point in time they all get passed by better.

[luisbe]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I'm going to take the other view.

IMHO, the main reason very deep closers have such a tough time winning is that they don't distribute their energy efficiently. They go too slow early and then have to make a huge draining middle move (usually wide) to get into contention on the turn. Once they get into contention, then they have to make a second move in the stretch to catch the front runners and mid pack horses that are often still finishing well.

The problem is the vast majority of deep closers have that first run, but they don't have that second run. So they kind of hang a bit in the stretch and can't get up unless the race collapses.

If the rider waits longer to make that first move, they will have more left for the stretch run, but then they have too much ground to make up and can't get up.

Everything has to go right for the typical deep closer.

The thing that made Zenyatta a freak was that she had the first move, she had the second move, and then when she crossed the finish line you could tell there was still more reserve stamina in the tank. That means if required, you could have asked for more sooner, got it, and she still would have that second move. That's exactly what happened in some of her races. Smith timed the move to get her into position (not to maximize her final time) and she did what was required late.

IMO, that's what was sensational about Arrogate today.

He got left and did not use his energy efficiently early from way back there (just like Z). Then he made that huge move to get into contention. Most good horses would be empty at that point and kind of hang. But he had the second run because he has the reserves of a top horse. That's why he was able to win. But the truly freaky thing is that it was clear he still had plenty in the tank after the wire. You could have asked for more sooner and he still would have finished. He's a freak. IMO we haven't seen his best yet.

...and watch again the last 80 yards, he was eased before the wire. That's unbelievable!

[luisbe]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I'm not sure that's relevant except to compliment the horse's versatility.

Usually a slow pace is a disadvantage to deep closers except when the track dictates differently. Turf and synth for example as a norm, and then the dirt track that isn't playing to speed. Some have said the track today was bad for speed. Again, taking away nothing from the horse, but if that's true, then maybe Arrogate's wasnt quite as astonishing as it seemed and Gun Runner's race was even better than it seemed.

Do you realize that 2-3-4-5 on the wire were 2-3-4-5 at the start? who was favored?

[cj]

Originally Posted by Quesmark

Thanks for the link:
DWC race went in 24.81/48.28/1:12.93/1:37.86/2:02.15 splits.

Arrogate had plenty left after an running an opening quarter of 26.61 he ran the final mile in a respectable 1:35.49 he wasn't rushed early,and was able to pick up the pieces late.What was impressive was the poise he showed in overcoming trouble and the willingness to not quit,and the patience Mike Smith used in getting him back in the race.
Quality way above average performance no doubt,historically great hmmm...

Track was slow today and also there is no run up, so times look slower.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I'm not sure that's relevant except to compliment the horse's versatility.

Usually a slow pace is a disadvantage to deep closers except when the track dictates differently. Turf and synth for example as a norm, and then the dirt track that isn't playing to speed. Some have said the track today was bad for speed. Again, taking away nothing from the horse, but if that's true, then maybe Arrogate's wasnt quite as astonishing as it seemed and Gun Runner's race was even better than it seemed.

You are right. In retrospect...it indeed seems as if Gun Runner might have run the better race.

[pandy]

Originally Posted by cj

Track was slow today and also there is no run up, so times look slower.

Yes, without the run up, big difference, plus the rain obviously slowed the surface. Looking forward to seeing your Timeform Figure.

[Ruffian1]

Originally Posted by cj

Track was slow today and also there is no run up, so times look slower.

Such key information.

Thanks CJ.

[EasyGoer89]

Astounding how much money Baffert and Smith have made in A's last two starts, 1.5 million each ? More? Less? Anyone know??

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Lemon Drop Husker

Tom Brady will never be as good or better than Joe Montana.

Michael Jordan will never be as good or better than Dr. J.

Wayne Gretzky will never be as good or better than Bobby Orr.

We all love our heroes. But at some point in time they all get passed by better.

What? No one is or was better than Jordan.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

What? No one is or was better than Jordan.

Bill Russell was and it's really not close.

[cj]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Bill Russell was and it's really not close.

That is crazy talk.

That said, let's stick to horses in the horse section. Start a thread in sports to discuss basketball farther.

[Dahoss9698]

After the Travers I was very hesitant to heap the kind of praise towards Arrogate that some on here were.

I was WAAAAAAAY wrong. About as wrong as you can be. I very humbly apologize to anyone I disagreed with at that time. Arrogate is the best horse I've seen in my lifetime and that's tough to say as I love Holy Bull.

To win today like he did is just amazing. Maybe even more amazing than the Travers romp. We're just lucky to be able to watch talent like that.

[EMD4ME]

Originally Posted by Dahoss9698

After the Travers I was very hesitant to heap the kind of praise towards Arrogate that some on here were.

I was WAAAAAAAY wrong. About as wrong as you can be. I very humbly apologize to anyone I disagreed with at that time. Arrogate is the best horse I've seen in my lifetime and that's tough to say as I love Holy Bull.

To win today like he did is just amazing. Maybe even more amazing than the Travers romp. We're just lucky to be able to watch talent like that.

Apology accepted despite me not even knowing if we disagreed

This horse is simply, AWESOME

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You are right. In retrospect...it indeed seems as if Gun Runner might have run the better race.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. <eye roll>

For the record, I was just reporting what the commentators were saying about the track. I wasn't watching to know if this seemed right which is why I stipulated "if true."