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Old 09-10-2009, 02:49 PM   #91
Robert Fischer
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why not make it an even 100K?
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Old 09-10-2009, 02:56 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by badcompany
you will have nasty losing streaks that make you want to pull your hair out.
Again, if you are betting one half of 1%, and we're not talking low-hit-rate exotics, and you manage to burn through $50k, that's not a losing streak, it's evidence that you're not a winning player.
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:07 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by DeanT
Chip Reese (RIP) one of the most successful gamblers out there told a story: He was on his way to visit his mother for a holiday of some sort. He stopped on the way for a poker game and won $20,000. It was cash of course. When he got to his mother's house he had to put it somewhere, so he threw it in the freezer. He had a good time and went home. Some months later, his mother called. She said 'I found a loaf of money in the freezer; is it yours?'

I thought that was telling. If you make a 20k score and have the ability to look at it as a part of your bankroll, or simply a score keeping device, one can be ok. If that 20k is a means to pay off a mortgage, or use to buy something, or something you would think about, it will be tough to be professional in racing/gambling, imo.
Most of the very successful "gamblers" I have ever known (like Chip), have all had the quality of having almost total disregard for the value of a dollar (how else do you forget 20k in a freezer?). Dollars are just something used to bet and keep score, like chips in poker. They are not afraid to make the wagers they need to make because of fear of losing it.

P.S. I was lucky enough to play some poker with Chip, and he was not only a great card player, but a great guy as well. His calm cool and nice guy demeanor at the poker table would lull people to sleep where he would murder them at the table.
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:12 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by badcompany
Is this really enough?

From my own perspective, I'd have to pull about 2.5K a month (30k a yr) just for living expenses and that doesn't include the health insurance policy I'd have to buy to replace the employer based one I have now, or the ~15% of my income that I save. And let's not forget that you do have an obligation to pay taxes on your winnings.
it is at least a start.

if he rolls 50k even once a month and gets a 5% rebate, he'll make the 30k a year you need to live in manhattan....... and i hope he doesn't need this much in cincinnati.
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:41 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by badcompany
We're talking about your livelihood, here. You have to take into account doomsday scenarios. Whether it's a month or a year is irrelevant. What would you do if you did go broke? Where would you get another 50k? The median American household income is ~45k a year before taxes, and, if you could get that money so easily why would you risk it on something as tenuous as betting horses?
If you need money to pay the rent, and cant afford to lose $50,000, it should not be your starting bankroll.

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Most of the very successful "gamblers" I have ever known (like Chip), have all had the quality of having almost total disregard for the value of a dollar (how else do you forget 20k in a freezer?). Dollars are just something used to bet and keep score, like chips in poker. They are not afraid to make the wagers they need to make because of fear of losing it.

P.S. I was lucky enough to play some poker with Chip, and he was not only a great card player, but a great guy as well. His calm cool and nice guy demeanor at the poker table would lull people to sleep where he would murder them at the table.
I was wondering when you would pop in here CB! Nice to hear from you on this. I heard (anecdotally of course) good things about Chip. He died far too young.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:10 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by DeanT
I was wondering when you would pop in here CB! Nice to hear from you on this. I heard (anecdotally of course) good things about Chip. He died far too young.
I guess I should have added that most "professional" poker players I know are more or less broke the majority of the time because of their total disregard for the value of the dollar. They tend to substantially overbet their bankrolls! Over the past few years, many of the ones that are doing well are doing so because of interests outside of their card playing.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:33 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBedo
I guess I should have added that most "professional" poker players I know are more or less broke the majority of the time because of their total disregard for the value of the dollar. They tend to substantially overbet their bankrolls! Over the past few years, many of the ones that are doing well are doing so because of interests outside of their card playing.
Unfortunately, some of the very good poker players are horrible at other gambling endeavors. That coupled with their disregard for the value of the dollars keeps some of them broke.

How can we convince more of them to play our game?
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:50 PM   #98
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Unfortunately, some of the very good poker players are horrible at other gambling endeavors. That coupled with their disregard for the value of the dollars keeps some of them broke.

How can we convince more of them to play our game?
Craps is easier.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:01 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by CBedo
Most of the very successful "gamblers" I have ever known (like Chip), have all had the quality of having almost total disregard for the value of a dollar (how else do you forget 20k in a freezer?). Dollars are just something used to bet and keep score, like chips in poker. They are not afraid to make the wagers they need to make because of fear of losing it.

P.S. I was lucky enough to play some poker with Chip, and he was not only a great card player, but a great guy as well. His calm cool and nice guy demeanor at the poker table would lull people to sleep where he would murder them at the table.
Who was better chip reese or stu ungar?
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:11 PM   #100
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Who was better chip reese or stu ungar?
I came along after Stuey, but from people I talked to, his ability to read people was scary. I think I read somewhere that he won better than 1 our of every 4 big buyin poker tournaments he ever played. The first WSOP main event he won, I don't think he had ever played no limit before. From what I've heard, many of today's uber aggressive, put your opponent to the test strategies, Stu used well before they were popular (explaining some of the success). Unfortunately, his battles with cocaine addiction kept us from really knowing how good he could have been.

Chip might not have been a better "pure" card player, but his overall thinking and gambling abilities are legendary. When Doyle Brunson says you are the greatest ever, that carries some weight.

FYI, Nolan Dalla's book about Stuey is a pretty good read.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:17 PM   #101
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CB,

Chip was a good money manager was he not? I know he branched out into betting baseball late in life and made a killing, so he must have been good, no?

I wonder, how much success in poker is money management and the ability to stay off tilt? Is it as much, or more, or less important than in racing?

I think Ungar was a tilt guy and Reese was not. I wonder who would be the better player when that is added to the mix?
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Old 09-12-2009, 03:51 AM   #102
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Warren Henry wrote:
How can we convince more of them to play our game?
Exactly! Plus lawyers, doctors, pro athletes, etc. who may be superb in their calling, but often assume they are as good at everything else besides their profession.

Have professional conventions and poker tournaments hosted at the racetrack, maybe.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:45 AM   #103
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There is no "one way" of making a living at the track. Instead, consider some helpful attributes:

1. A way to accurately evaluate each race (or series of races) that interest you, whether you use software, the Form, or your own method.

2. The discipline to play only those horses or combinations which you perceive to be overlays which will mean passing many races, some of which you would have won had you bet.

3. The creativity to make the proper type of bet considering the particular circumstances of the situation (keying a horse for fourth, throwing out the second choice, using A's and B's and C's for multi-horse wagers, playing the daily double but not necessarily the win bets in either leg, betting a certain favorite to show, etc.).

4. A method of bet-sizing that considers factors such as your effect on the pool, your bankroll, the types of bets you make, the amount of value for the particular bet, your emotional big-bet threshhold, and several other factors.

5. The insistence on getting strong rebates, betting at Betfair, and similar deals which have a major effect on the bottom lines of nearly all the full-time players these days (including me).

6. A very large bankroll. If you have only $10,000 and bet a fairly safe 2% of your bankroll per bet and bet 8 races a day four days a week for 40 weeks a year, you're putting only $256,000 through the windows, which won't qualify you for much in rebates; if you do manage to get a 3% rebate and win 2% straight up (a much tougher long-term feat than some posters here may think), you'll make less than $13,000 annually. You can of course bet higher amounts, more races per day, more days, and more weeks--but there's no guarantee that this higher handle will help you win.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:08 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by BMeadow

6. A very large bankroll. If you have only $10,000 and bet a fairly safe 2% of your bankroll per bet and bet 8 races a day .
how safe is this 2 % is my question?

betting this on 8 overlays a day, i could lose all 8 and that would be 16% of my bankroll right there. (of course i know i'm the only player on here who can lose 8 races in a row. )

if this was the stock market this 16% would be one of the largest single day declines ever, but it's ok for my racing bankroll?
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:32 AM   #105
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this is a great thread. if everyone that said they are winning are actually winning, how come the handles are down 15% year to date? and since parimutual racing is a zero sum gain where is the money coming from that all you people are winning?

it seems to me that all you winners have complex sheet and computer programs that are setup to beat this game. i have been told that drugs make horses run faster, how do you put that in your programs since one jurisdiction is different than the other concerning medications?

personally, i don't use racing forms, sheets or any type of numbers to derive my wagers and i lose on a consistan basis. i say that because i am doing different things than most here. during this last saratoga meet there were plenty of 2yo maiden races that i had or knew of 3 or more horses in the race and i might have won 2 races for a big net loss.

the people that read racing forms and use sheets and numbers to derive their selections are way down now. where is the "dumb money" coming from. i look around and have now figured out that i am the dumb money in the game.

i am very stupid, and if there really are people out there that make a living betting parimutual horseracing my hat goes off to you and i truly hope you continue on your winning ways.
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