Bill Finley - Cheaters: Lock them up

[maclr11]

That's the risk of claiming, you should be open to that risk that the horse.
Claiming has been and always will be bought as seen. You can't negate a claim because of unsoundness that is the risk of claiming, it sucks but there is always a reason a horse is in for a tag.
I have zero problem getting ready of my cripples, it is no longer my problem. Cripples are exspensive, hard to maintain, I would do lots of things to try to get one claimed. Why do you think trainers make huge class drops with horses, they want the horse gone, no ones dumb enough to really run a true 40,000 horse for 10,000. The trainer wants it gone, and if you want to take a shot on the horse that you can fix him then that is your decision. You shouldn't get the vet record to look at.

The owners are the bettors to a large extent. Locally I would assume that 75 percent of the on track handle comes from people involved in the game. Owners, trainers and grooms. I also remind you without horses to bet on there is nothing to bet on for the betting public.

No one really knows about the drugs though, everyone rumors that guys have this and have that, but most of it is hard to get. What is fact and what is truth on the backside is hard to determine and I am going to keep by the fact of innocent until proven guilty. As soon as someone has a good season they have to be using someone, is it anything different than a battery used by a jockey, and dont try to tell me that those have been eliminated from the game.

With the open vet records the other issue could be a legal technique that a trainer is using that works quite well, but not many people do it. Say for example Blocking a throat. When a throat is blocked and the open vet records show that then everyone will start jumping on the bandwagon and blocking throats because they think it works. If I have a legal edge why should I have to publish it, that is like going into a poker game and stating what everyone's tells are and not being able to use them for an advantage.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by maclr11

That's the risk of claiming, you should be open to that risk that the horse.
Claiming has been and always will be bought as seen. You can't negate a claim because of unsoundness that is the risk of claiming, it sucks but there is always a reason a horse is in for a tag.
I have zero problem getting ready of my cripples, it is no longer my problem. Cripples are exspensive, hard to maintain, I would do lots of things to try to get one claimed. Why do you think trainers make huge class drops with horses, they want the horse gone, no ones dumb enough to really run a true 40,000 horse for 10,000. The trainer wants it gone, and if you want to take a shot on the horse that you can fix him then that is your decision. You shouldn't get the vet record to look at.

The owners are the bettors to a large extent. Locally I would assume that 75 percent of the on track handle comes from people involved in the game. Owners, trainers and grooms. I also remind you without horses to bet on there is nothing to bet on for the betting public.

No one really knows about the drugs though, everyone rumors that guys have this and have that, but most of it is hard to get. What is fact and what is truth on the backside is hard to determine and I am going to keep by the fact of innocent until proven guilty. As soon as someone has a good season they have to be using someone, is it anything different than a battery used by a jockey, and dont try to tell me that those have been eliminated from the game.

With the open vet records the other issue could be a legal technique that a trainer is using that works quite well, but not many people do it. Say for example Blocking a throat. When a throat is blocked and the open vet records show that then everyone will start jumping on the bandwagon and blocking throats because they think it works. If I have a legal edge why should I have to publish it, that is like going into a poker game and stating what everyone's tells are and not being able to use them for an advantage.

If you want to see how much the owners, trainers and grooms affect the betting pools...just compare the on-track handle to the total mutuel handle.

I doubt that it will amount to 75%...

[maclr11]

I stated locally that it is close to 75 percent of the on track handle.
Since daily on track attendance is normally no more than 500 and a good proportion of those are owners, trainers and grooms, along with most of the big players that I can think of that plays our races on track are owners. The HBPA president on his own probably bets more in one day than all the young people who come and bet $2 to show on every race.
We calculated it one day that the $4500 Pick 4 pool, was split between 15 guys that we spent $2200 of that $4500. That is just guys that hang out in the same box's as I do, and they are all owners and one is a trainer.

So 75 percent of our on track handle is very likely owners and trainers.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by maclr11

I stated locally that it is close to 75 percent of the on track handle.
Since daily on track attendance is normally no more than 500 and a good proportion of those are owners, trainers and grooms, along with most of the big players that I can think of that plays our races on track are owners. The HBPA president on his own probably bets more in one day than all the young people who come and bet $2 to show on every race.
We calculated it one day that the $4500 Pick 4 pool, was split between 15 guys that we spent $2200 of that $4500. That is just guys that hang out in the same box's as I do, and they are all owners and one is a trainer.

So 75 percent of our on track handle is very likely owners and trainers.

Yes, but the on-track handle is small potatoes compared to the off-track handle.

This game is much more than just owners and trainers trying to get "rid of their cripples"...as you say.

You also have many thousands of fans betting many millions of dollars...and you can't keep them in the dark about whether or not the horses they are betting on are on their "meds" today.

The owners and trainers are not the only participants in this game. The fans deserve some consideration too.

[edgar]

apologies if this has already been posted but the ny times has an extensive series on drugs in horse racing:
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/ref...ing/drugs.html
dozens of in-depth articles. some of them identify the strictest states. i plan to vote with my wagering $.

[maclr11]

Well go ahead and find the money to implement the vet records, I agree that the game needs to be balanced between the needs of owners/trainers and the betting public.
Yes there is tons more to the game than getting rid of their cripples, but there has to be a way to do it. How many of the best betting opportunities in the game are when there is a 4-5 shot on the big class drop who is vulnearable. If his vet records are available then the horse might not be 4-5. Why not capitilize on situations like this with a little logic than sit here and complain about the vet records being sealed because I guarantee you that it will never change.

[rastajenk]

A couple of clear-eyed reality-based responders here, that's encouraging.

This ain't NASCAR, and it ain't the NFL. It's a state-regulated bunch of independent businesses, and as such, those that are licensed by the state, while giving up many civil liberties, still retain some, including all legal avenues of due process; just the same as any licensee in any other regulated industry would have. Some of you want to fling justice around like Roy Bean, but fortunately we as a society are past that.

How many Wall Streeters were jailed for the 2008-2009 mess, give or take a year either way? Not the scammers like Madoff, but the lazy regulators, decision-makers or Congressional enablers?

How many of you have bitched about a stewards' decision?

How many of you really want a stewards' decision to result in jail time? Not me.

[lamboguy]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes, but the on-track handle is small potatoes compared to the off-track handle.

This game is much more than just owners and trainers trying to get "rid of their cripples"...as you say.

You also have many thousands of fans betting many millions of dollars...and you can't keep them in the dark about whether or not the horses they are betting on are on their "meds" today.

The owners and trainers are not the only participants in this game. The fans deserve some consideration too.

The name of this game is HORSE RACING, not FAN RACING, not OWNER RACING, and not TRAINER RACING. the horse's are the stars of this game and must be treated fairly first before you start dealing with fan's, owner's, trainer's and management.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by lamboguy

The name of this game is HORSE RACING, not FAN RACING, not OWNER RACING, and not TRAINER RACING. the horse's are the stars of this game and must be treated fairly first before you start dealing with fan's, owner's, trainer's and management.

In California, its trainer racing...those guys are stars who run the game out there, when a top trainer says jump, everyone jumps like cats on a hot tin roof.

[5k-claim]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

While a horse is in training, ALL medications administered (both therapeutic and race day) must be administered by the state or track vet.

While a horse is in training, ALL veterinary procedures performed must be performed by the state or track vet.

....

Horses shipping in from a racing jurisdiction where the above rules have not (yet) been adopted, or horses that have been "out of training" can enter "into training" but must first undergo a 45 day quarantine period (where the state/track vet is the one who administers all meds and/or performs all procedures and logs same on the horse’s medical passport) before the horse becomes eligible to race and earn purse money.

Thoughts?


-jp

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Uh.... I don't think I understand, Jeff.

How would this work for horses (like Animal Kingdom, for example) training at facilities like Fair Hill?

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[5k-claim]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

If you want to see how much the owners, trainers and grooms affect the betting pools...just compare the on-track handle to the total mutuel handle.

I doubt that it will amount to 75%...

I have no clue how any of this breaks down by percentage, but there are owners, trainers and grooms who know how to work computers, phones, and ADW accounts. All of their bets do not necessarily show up exclusively "on-track". Right?

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[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by rastajenk

A couple of clear-eyed reality-based responders here, that's encouraging.

This ain't NASCAR, and it ain't the NFL. It's a state-regulated bunch of independent businesses, and as such, those that are licensed by the state, while giving up many civil liberties, still retain some, including all legal avenues of due process; just the same as any licensee in any other regulated industry would have. Some of you want to fling justice around like Roy Bean, but fortunately we as a society are past that.

How many Wall Streeters were jailed for the 2008-2009 mess, give or take a year either way? Not the scammers like Madoff, but the lazy regulators, decision-makers or Congressional enablers?

How many of you have bitched about a stewards' decision?

How many of you really want a stewards' decision to result in jail time? Not me.

I dont think bettors want stewards in jail, but they do want the ability to win a judgment in court for monies that they were cost from stewards negligence. Real society permits you to file a claim but for some reason, horse racing is 'exempt' from real life laws.

As far as flinging justice around like Roy Bean, horseplayers want cheating trainers to have SEVERE penalties and not wrist slaps. Until a trainer gets indicted for fixing a horse race and tampering with a sporting contest or some other penalty that would result in that trainer having to at least answer to a judge in a court of law, nothing is going to change. Its going to be business as usual.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

I dont think bettors want stewards in jail, ...

I think you misinterpret.

Or else I did.

[Stillriledup]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

I think you misinterpret.

Or else I did.

lol you're right!

[Jeff P]

I recall a day spent on track in late October, 1989. On track paid attendance at Santa Anita that afternoon was (if memory serves) somewhere around 18,000. This wasn't a special event day mind you... rather it was just a typical Fri afternoon card.

It kills me to go to Santa Anita these days and see paid attendance on track of (what?) 3500-4000.

Hint: It's worse at most other venues.

A few weeks back I bet a race at PID (Presque Isle Downs.) In that race, Mario Pino got his 5000th career win. Katie Mikolay interviewed him immediately following that race. The interview lasted several minutes. Visible in the background during the entire interview was the track apron and grandstand. Here's a rider who's as fearless, honest, hard working, and humble as anyone who's ever gotten a leg up. Yet, I saw a grand total of exactly 1 fan in the background during the entire interview. (I'm not making that up.)

I've posted this elsewhere but...

According to numbers on the Jockey Club website, in 2003, all sources handle for thoroughbred racing conducted in North America was $15.9 billion. Last year, for calendar year 2011, all sources handle for thoroughbred racing conducted in North America came in at $11.4 billion. That’s a loss of 28.3% in just nine years. (The loss is even worse if you adjust it for inflation.)

That, by itself, should be enough to send a red flag up the pole.

In 2009, we did the first HANA Survey. In that survey, 75 percent of bettors responding named high takeout as the primary reason they bet less than they otherwise would. In that survey, more than 70 percent identified an outdated tote system and odds that change after the bell as the number two reason they bet less than they otherwise would. In that survey, more than two thirds of players responding named racing’s drug problem as the number three reason they bet less than they otherwise would.

Not only that, but in survey after survey, HANA’s horseplayer members have consistently confirmed those original findings.

From a market research standpoint, I have very little trouble identifying the obvious elephants sitting in the room as follows:

1. High Takeout.

2. Obsolete Tote System/Odds that change after the bell (translates to lack of integrity.)

3. DRUGS - translates to lack of integrity (and what we are talking about in this thread.)

There are REASONS for where we as an industry find ourselves.

Until Racing actually takes on those reasons, there is every reason to expect that racing will continue to decline in popularity from the public at large - and there is every reason to expect that the long term downward handle trend will continue.



-jp

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