Mark Steyn tells it like it is....Demographics

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

I'm always kind of leery of entering the foray in these discussions because I get to see both sides of the two extremes pretty regularly. Like KaBong, I'm in a border state. Yeah, I see plenty of people that have "gamed" the system - though, I kind of think in many ways the system is set up to "game" the people for larger reasons, but I digress...

The vast, vast, vast majority of mexicans that I know are the also the hardest working people I know. And they are rarely unemployed, and if they are, it is usually because there are higher expectations of them and don't have the protections that most employees have if they make one mistake, have one emergency, or just a bad day. They also don't stay unemployed for long.

My perspective is of course, influenced primarily because of my setting in life - either at the racetrack or some kind of ranch/farm type environment.

The most entertaining part of the year at the track was when the HBPA would have to post the employment ads in the local papers as part of the H2B work program. To make sure that employers tried to hire Americans first, they are required to take out ads offering employment in numbers that basically correlated to the expected number of H2B visas that were anticipated to be needed to fulfill the jobs on the backside.

Because I lived in the trailer park right next to the racetrack, I often ran into the people that had read the ad in the paper and were looking for work as I was leaving the track at the end of the morning. It was HYSTERICAL to see the reactions you'd get when they started asking questions.

Generally, a young couple, boyfriend/girlfriend that look as though they had been abandoned after the last Phish concert. The girl says how much she loves horses and how cool it would be to work at a racetrack with them.

"So what do I have to do?"

"Well, you'll have to get up early, and..."

"How early?"

"Well, most barns want you there by 5am, and..."

"Whoa... really?" (exchange glances, laughing a bit at the thought"

"So, is it full time, like if I start at 5, and its five days a week, then it's until, like noon time every day?"

"No, it's more like five until whenever you are done - sometimes ten, sometimes noon, if you have a horse running, you have to be there all day, though you don't really need to do anything between the end of training and the race. But then you have to feed in the afternoon and do chores. So it's basically from five until five, with a siesta during the races most days..."

"... and it's seven days a week, not five, and there are no days off. No thanksgiving off, no christmas off, no birthday off. It's all day, every day."

(Now staring in total disbelief, mouths agape)

"So... it's like, basically, 100 hours a week with no time off ever for four hundred dollars a week?"

"Yeah, and it's tough. You work hard, it's physical, and you're under pressure all the time. And if you mess up, a horse gets hurt, a rider gets hurt, a trainer loses an owner."

Needless to say, I turn most of them away before they ever make it to the stable gate.

Meanwhile, the mexicans are paying extortion money to get here to do the work. I mean, literally, extortion money to the assholes that promise to handle the paperwork and find them work and then take their money and keep taking their money and if they don't pay up out of each check for this "service", they are threatened with getting thrown the hell out.

They put up with all of this shit because they WANT to be here, working hard, doing things that most of our coddled society would have no part of whatsoever. They are good people that are as honest and believing in "the American way" as anyone you'll ever meet, even when it shits on them.

The scenario plays out on many a farm/ranch scenario as well. The only gringos left that still want to work that hard are the seventy-year-old men that have been doing it their whole lives and know what hard work is.

Quite honestly, I'd like to see most of the white trash meth head scumbags that I see deported to Mexico to make room for these people that may not exactly be "assimilated" as far as language and musical preferences, but in terms of what people seem to consider "traditional American values", most of these guys are about the closest thing that I encounter that meet that criteria.

We DEFINITELY need to figure out a better way to handle the illegal immigration, but if we want a better America, a citizenry that reflects all the good ideals of our citizens throughout its history, I happen to think we'd be better off with an exchange program to Mexico where we import Mexicans and export a few of the white trashbags that speak the language because they were born here.

I was in the grocery business for over 20 years, and witnessed the same thing. Mexicans begging me for as many hours as I could give them...and "assimilated" Americans who were horrified at the thought of working 8 hours without multiple cigarette breaks.

[lsbets]

Originally Posted by johnhannibalsmith

I'm always kind of leery of entering the foray in these discussions because I get to see both sides of the two extremes pretty regularly. Like KaBong, I'm in a border state. Yeah, I see plenty of people that have "gamed" the system - though, I kind of think in many ways the system is set up to "game" the people for larger reasons, but I digress...

The vast, vast, vast majority of mexicans that I know are the also the hardest working people I know. And they are rarely unemployed, and if they are, it is usually because there are higher expectations of them and don't have the protections that most employees have if they make one mistake, have one emergency, or just a bad day. They also don't stay unemployed for long.

My perspective is of course, influenced primarily because of my setting in life - either at the racetrack or some kind of ranch/farm type environment.

The most entertaining part of the year at the track was when the HBPA would have to post the employment ads in the local papers as part of the H2B work program. To make sure that employers tried to hire Americans first, they are required to take out ads offering employment in numbers that basically correlated to the expected number of H2B visas that were anticipated to be needed to fulfill the jobs on the backside.

Because I lived in the trailer park right next to the racetrack, I often ran into the people that had read the ad in the paper and were looking for work as I was leaving the track at the end of the morning. It was HYSTERICAL to see the reactions you'd get when they started asking questions.

Generally, a young couple, boyfriend/girlfriend that look as though they had been abandoned after the last Phish concert. The girl says how much she loves horses and how cool it would be to work at a racetrack with them.

"So what do I have to do?"

"Well, you'll have to get up early, and..."

"How early?"

"Well, most barns want you there by 5am, and..."

"Whoa... really?" (exchange glances, laughing a bit at the thought"

"So, is it full time, like if I start at 5, and its five days a week, then it's until, like noon time every day?"

"No, it's more like five until whenever you are done - sometimes ten, sometimes noon, if you have a horse running, you have to be there all day, though you don't really need to do anything between the end of training and the race. But then you have to feed in the afternoon and do chores. So it's basically from five until five, with a siesta during the races most days..."

"... and it's seven days a week, not five, and there are no days off. No thanksgiving off, no christmas off, no birthday off. It's all day, every day."

(Now staring in total disbelief, mouths agape)

"So... it's like, basically, 100 hours a week with no time off ever for four hundred dollars a week?"

"Yeah, and it's tough. You work hard, it's physical, and you're under pressure all the time. And if you mess up, a horse gets hurt, a rider gets hurt, a trainer loses an owner."

Needless to say, I turn most of them away before they ever make it to the stable gate.

Meanwhile, the mexicans are paying extortion money to get here to do the work. I mean, literally, extortion money to the assholes that promise to handle the paperwork and find them work and then take their money and keep taking their money and if they don't pay up out of each check for this "service", they are threatened with getting thrown the hell out.

They put up with all of this shit because they WANT to be here, working hard, doing things that most of our coddled society would have no part of whatsoever. They are good people that are as honest and believing in "the American way" as anyone you'll ever meet, even when it shits on them.

The scenario plays out on many a farm/ranch scenario as well. The only gringos left that still want to work that hard are the seventy-year-old men that have been doing it their whole lives and know what hard work is.

Quite honestly, I'd like to see most of the white trash meth head scumbags that I see deported to Mexico to make room for these people that may not exactly be "assimilated" as far as language and musical preferences, but in terms of what people seem to consider "traditional American values", most of these guys are about the closest thing that I encounter that meet that criteria.

We DEFINITELY need to figure out a better way to handle the illegal immigration, but if we want a better America, a citizenry that reflects all the good ideals of our citizens throughout its history, I happen to think we'd be better off with an exchange program to Mexico where we import Mexicans and export a few of the white trashbags that speak the language because they were born here.

Unsurprisingly I agree with you again. In my experience, the Mexicans I know all work 2 jobs, 70+ hours per week. I've worked in both homebuilding and restaurants. I know the guys who've been doing houses for a while get paid a decent amount (12-15 an hour), but can't say what the kid just in from Mexico gets.

In the restaurants ( at least around me), they get paid as much as anyone else doing the same job, but there is a reason the majority of kitchen staffs are Mexican. Not many whites show up for the interviews, the ones who do apply for the most part are not worth hiring, and the Mexicans work their asses off. They'll go to one place to do morning prep and lunch, then clock out and go to the next job to do dinner prep and dinner. 6 days a week. I'm sure JR's wife would agree with this. Given two applicants for a kitchen job - one white and one Mexican, knowing nothing else about either one, and with both wanting the same pay, the Mexican will get hired 90% of the time, for the simple reason that whites have a reputation as being lazy, and if for some reason the Mexican doesn't show up one day, another one will get on his phone, and 5 people will be there in 30 minutes wanting the job.

Every one I had work for me gave me a social security card and drivers license. I filled out all the paperwork and never had any problems. As far as I am concerned I did what I was required to do, but I am not naive enough to believe that they were legal. Our system is broken and needs to be reformed. We need to figure out a way to allow the people in who will work their ass off to make a better life and keep out the ones who want to run with gangs. Forcing the workers to live in the shadows creates more crime because they are easy victims who are weary of going to the police. Its a bad cycle that needs to be broken. We used to have a program in place (bracero program) to allow workers in temporarily, but the labor unions saw it as a threat to their membership and fought to have it ended. Ironic.

Side note/question for labor guys:

Here's a scenario I'm curious to hear opinions on from the labor rights people. I had a cook who was awesome and loved working for me and my wife. She worked prep and lunch, and then a second job down the street. The boss at the second job was a royal prick. She came to us and asked if she could work straight through, 6 days a week. From 9 till 9 with an hour off after lunch. I told her no because overtime was no where in my budget. I paid her 12 an hour, no way could I pay 18 for any significant amount of hours. She said she didn't care about overtime pay (she got 12 down the street too), and that she really liked working for us and would rather just work for us. She said she would do it without getting paid overtime.

As much as I wanted to, because she was awesome, I didn't. I told her the law said I had to pay overtime and I wasn't willing to break the law. She laughed and said the law was stupid.

What do you think? Should she have been able to waive overtime pay to get more hours at a job she loved, versus work a second job that she didn't like nearly as much? Mosty and Stinks? I'm really curious as to your opinions on this.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by sammy the sage

at least those native INDIANS weren't so difficult...

I find the WHOLE immigration "Holier than thou" attitude pathetic...

Just make whom-ever/where-ever obey and follow SAME set of standards AS everybody else and BE DONE w/it...

When you look at our history, people were happy to come to become one of us. They still celebrated their own histories, but the wanted to be Americans. They learned our language, they contributed to our culture and each nation changed it a bit. Did you ever hear of the great melting pot? If everyone speaks a different language, the melting pot become a scrap heat.

The holier than thou attitude is held by those who come and do not want to learn to speak our language.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Yes...but it's not a "culture"...IMO. It's a fad...

Cultures take longer to develop.

How many cultures have developed with multi-languages ? Look at Euorpe - many small countries, many languages, many wars.

[NJ Stinks]

Originally Posted by lsbets

Here's a scenario I'm curious to hear opinions on from the labor rights people. I had a cook who was awesome and loved working for me and my wife. She worked prep and lunch, and then a second job down the street. The boss at the second job was a royal prick. She came to us and asked if she could work straight through, 6 days a week. From 9 till 9 with an hour off after lunch. I told her no because overtime was no where in my budget. I paid her 12 an hour, no way could I pay 18 for any significant amount of hours. She said she didn't care about overtime pay (she got 12 down the street too), and that she really liked working for us and would rather just work for us. She said she would do it without getting paid overtime.

As much as I wanted to, because she was awesome, I didn't. I told her the law said I had to pay overtime and I wasn't willing to break the law. She laughed and said the law was stupid.

What do you think? Should she have been able to waive overtime pay to get more hours at a job she loved, versus work a second job that she didn't like nearly as much? Mosty and Stinks? I'm really curious as to your opinions on this.

I say no. While I can see why it would be beneficial in this case for her, I can't get past the idea that employers will be waving that waiver form at their employees and saying: "Sign it and you can work more hours and make more money." It's not quite "Let me have sex with you and I'll see what I can do about getting you promoted" but it's in that ball park.

Employees may feel pressure to sign the form because they want to keep their job is what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, that's how I see it. I would like to be convinced that my concern above is wrong but sitting here now, I can't imagine why it is.

[Tom]

Government knows better than the people, right?
Why should a person have the right to make his own decisions.

[badcompany]

Originally Posted by lsbets

What do you think? Should she have been able to waive overtime pay to get more hours at a job she loved, versus work a second job that she didn't like nearly as much? Mosty and Stinks? I'm really curious as to your opinions on this.

It's a classic example of why wage price controls produce the exact opposite of the intended effect.

The increase in the price of labor (time and 1/2) caused a decrease in demand for it, and person who suffers is a laborer.

Anyone who isn't blinded by failed interventionist ideology can see that what I've said is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[NJ Stinks]

Originally Posted by badcompany

It's a classic example of why wage price controls produce the exact opposite of the intended effect.

The increase in the price of labor (time and 1/2) caused a decrease in demand for it, and person who suffers is a laborer.

Anyone who isn't blinded by failed interventionist ideology can see that what I've said is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

A short while ago, in the summer before my freshman year in high school , I had a job loading baskets of blueberries onto trailers. It was hard and seasonal work and most weeks the crew of about 20 teenagers worked about 65 to 75 hours a week. We were making $1.25 an hour - the minimum wage. Anyway, in mid-August we got a real shock when we got our paychecks. There was a separate check enclosed for all the overtime we worked but were not paid time and a half for. (In other words, we were paid overtime for every hour over 40 hours we worked each week since we started in June.) Everybody was shocked and amazed at our good fortune! Nobody could believe the company decided to pay us time and a half going back to when we started in June. Turns out they didn't want to - they had to because it was the law. But we didn't know that.

Shortly thereafter, we found out one of the guys in the crew had a father who did know the law. The father told management that if they didn't pay everyone of us the overtime due us, the father was going to inform the State of NJ about their disregard for the law.

That company was still in business 20 years after I worked there. Anyway, this is a classic example of workers being protected from an unscrupulous employer because of the mandatory overtime law.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by dartman51

Teddy had it RIGHT.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

The Oath of Allegiance taken by every naturalized citizen.

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

That will be the day when we allow some xenophobic Americans to dictate to us what language we are going to speak.

Seems to me it's not a matter of what language we choose to speak, but what language our laws will be written in. I'm unaware of Congress ever passing any bill written in any language other than English.

Suppose we choose to become a bilingual nation, say English and Spanish? Does every bill passed by Congress then have to be in both languages? The nature of linguistics being what it is, it is probably impossible to have both versions say the exact same thing. When some lawyer says that the English version says one thing and the Spanish version says another does the Supreme Court have to straighten it out? Aren't they busy enough already?

Do we have a law that the English version trumps the Spanish version? If so, doesn't that make Spanish a secondary language as far as the U.S. is concerned? ...and we're back where we started?

[johnhannibalsmith]

Originally Posted by Actor

...Suppose we choose to become a bilingual nation, say English and Spanish? Does every bill passed by Congress then have to be in both languages? The nature of linguistics being what it is, it is probably impossible to have both versions say the exact same thing. When some lawyer says that the English version says one thing and the Spanish version says another does the Supreme Court have to straighten it out? ...

I'm pretty sure Canadian courts manage to function okay.

[JustRalph]

LSBETS, wife has turned down same scenario many times.

A couple of managers in her company lost their jobs for doing it. They gamed the payroll software to make those xtra hours "training hours" which somehow made them a different category. Fired on the spot.

Software updated to fix that loophole

[sammy the sage]

Originally Posted by Tom

When you look at our history, people were happy to come to become one of us. They still celebrated their own histories, but the wanted to be Americans. They learned our language, they contributed to our culture and each nation changed it a bit. Did you ever hear of the great melting pot? If everyone speaks a different language, the melting pot become a scrap heat.

The holier than thou attitude is held by those who come and do not want to learn to speak our language.

No it's those WHO THINK the great melting pot SHOULD stop...

[sammy the sage]

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too!

Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too!

Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.
-- Emo Phillips

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by sammy the sage

No it's those WHO THINK the great melting pot SHOULD stop...

It shouldn't stop, it should be controlled.