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Old 12-09-2017, 09:42 AM   #4786
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First of all I must point out that the Anthropic Principle bases its claim on physical constants, not variables.

About those constants, let's consider two of them: the permitivity constant and the permeability constant. In SI units the former = 8.85E-12, the latter = 1.26E-6. Multiply the two together.

8.85E-12 x 1.26E-6 = 11.51E-18

Take the square root.

sqrt(11.51E-18) = 3.34E-9

Now take the reciprocal.

1.0 / 3.34E-9 = 3.0E8 = the speed of light.

This is no accident, no mere coincidence. It works not only with SI units but with CGS units and with SAE units. (SI = System International, CGI = Centimeter-Gram-Second, SAE = Society of American Engineers) The speed of light can be derived from electromagnetic constants. Ergo, the speed of light is not a primary contant and as such contributes nothing to the "fine tuning" argument.

Furthermore the permeability constant is also not a primary constant since it can be derived from the permitivity constant.

Moving on. There are four primary forces: electric, gravitational, strong and weak. Absolutely everything we know is through our interaction with these four. Even our five senses come down to these four. I submit that all physical constants can be derived from just four primary constants: permitivity, gravity, strong, weak.

It gets better. Scientists at CERN are working on the Unified Field Theory. If they succeed (I would say when they succeed) then every physical constant will come down to just one (four max). Ergo, the Anthropic Principle is a very weak argument that falls flat on its face. To argue otherwise is special pleading.
And all those many constants just came together by sheer accident to support life on this one earth. Oh, I know...I know...just because life hasn't been found yet on any of those hypothetical universes out there doesn't mean that the discovery of same isn't just around the bend...

And until those scientists make their great discovery, the Antrophic Principle remains a very strong argument for the design, purpose and intentionalty behind the existence of the universe.

So, answer these questions: Why is the universe what it is and not something else? Or do you believe that the universe necessarily cannot be something else?
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:43 AM   #4787
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You seem to grasp the concept. What is your point?
There is no order to accidents, perhaps?
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:46 AM   #4788
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I'm not saying that. I'm saying gravity is an observable fact.

Where did you get gazillions? It's eleven.

Already covered that.
So, if gravity isn't necessary in this universe, then it's existence occurred purely by accident. For once you're being consistent with your atheistic naturalism.
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:48 AM   #4789
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But if I win more than I lose I'll not change my strategy.

Pascal's wager does not work in poker, nor in real life.
But you can't be certain about ever winning.
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:32 PM   #4790
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Mr. Pirate, sir, I'm not surprised at all by your wild, irrational anti-Boxcar rant. Why would I expect anything different from someone who holds closely to his bosom an irrational, self-refuting worldview?

But just try to remember, it's only the sticks and stones that can break my bones...
The wild and irrational part you have right, but there's three fingers pointing back at you when it comes to identifying the source. Apparently an opinion shared by many here. Posting the coffee-drinking icon doesn't suppress it.

The self-refuting worldview is strong with you. Your entire chain of logic is built on text written by man, logic defined by man, and your own personal experiences - all resulting in dogma meant to control others, and stroke your own ego. All humility is checked at the door, and never seen again.

Nothing is more self-refuting in logic than relying on "God" as an explanation for the unanswerable questions in life. It's logic built on sand, as it requires the answer to the obvious question:

Where did God come from?

And we're right back where we started, trapped in circular logic on the order of the chicken and egg. Using scripture to make any arguments suffers the same fault - it's obviously written by man, unless one makes the "leap in faith" to believe it's divine in origin. There's nothing wrong with making a leap in faith, but any self-respecting scholar understands the limitations, and doesn't leave the "illogical" aspect of that leap out of his arguments.

It must be sad to KNOW so much. To wake up every morning, knowing that God is looking out for you, loving you, and preparing to take you into his Kingdom for eternity. A worldview that's the extreme at self-serving, and a belief system that retards further learning. Where's the fun in that?

It must be sad to see the GOOD NEWS get misinterpreted, or ignored, or warped beyond all recognition by so many. As a weeder mechanism, it fails on many levels.

It must be sad to see so many ignored by the Holy Spirit, never sharing your experience of coming to the Light. For them, the end is grim.

Seeking out "the truth" is an admirable goal, but to ignore the limitations that humans have when defining that truth - well, it's to die an early death.
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:29 PM   #4791
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The wild and irrational part you have right, but there's three fingers pointing back at you when it comes to identifying the source. Apparently an opinion shared by many here. Posting the coffee-drinking icon doesn't suppress it.
Yes, the world hates Christ people, as the bible predicted. Look at yourself, Mr. Worldly Wise Man, as a prime example. But I do drink a lot of coffee; "rumor" has it that it's quite a healthy habit.

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The self-refuting worldview is strong with you. Your entire chain of logic is built on text written by man, logic defined by man, and your own personal experiences - all resulting in dogma meant to control others, and stroke your own ego. All humility is checked at the door, and never seen again.
What "text" is written by man? And man hasn't defined logic; man discovered logic. Logic is not man's invention. If men invented logic, there would be no rational dialogue or discourse on this planet; for no one would be able to agree on anything.

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Nothing is more self-refuting in logic than relying on "God" as an explanation for the unanswerable questions in life. It's logic built on sand, as it requires the answer to the obvious question.

Where did God come from?
And why do you feel controlled by the laws of logic? Or me? I'm not controlling anything. I'm only pointing out your self-contradictory worldview, which you seem to be very comfortable with. You have no problem in living with a contradiction. Must be really neat to be so indifferent and oblivious to rational thought, eh? I bet in your world, it beats having sex?

Quote:
And we're right back where we started, trapped in circular logic on the order of the chicken and egg. Using scripture to make any arguments suffers the same fault - it's obviously written by man, unless one makes the "leap in faith" to believe it's divine in origin. There's nothing wrong with making a leap in faith, but any self-respecting scholar understands the limitations, and doesn't leave the "illogical" aspect of that leap out of his arguments.
Your above question presupposes a finite God. But God is eternal, therefore, your premise is not valid. God simply IS. Therefore, no circular reasoning. You see, God didn't create himself. Nor did he cause himself to come into existence. Those would be self-defeating assertions or propositions.

Quote:
It must be sad to KNOW so much. To wake up every morning, knowing that God is looking out for you, loving you, and preparing to take you into his Kingdom for eternity. A worldview that's the extreme at self-serving, and a belief system that retards further learning. Where's the fun in that?

It must be sad to see the GOOD NEWS get misinterpreted, or ignored, or warped beyond all recognition by so many. As a weeder mechanism, it fails on many levels.

It must be sad to see so many ignored by the Holy Spirit, never sharing your experience of coming to the Light. For them, the end is grim.

Seeking out "the truth" is an admirable goal, but to ignore the limitations that humans have when defining that truth - well, it's to die an early death.
You keep harping on our limitations, as though we're all equally as limited in true spiritual knowledge. If you want to celebrate your ignorance and limitations, I'm okay with that -- but don't think that all true born again Christians wallow in the depths of the muck and mire of those limitations of which you are so fond. This is a key benefit to being "born again" -- Christians have been miraculously raised from their dark tombs of ignorance by becoming sons of the light. God has shone in our hearts the true knowledge of Christ -- the Logos -- The Living Word of God (2Cor 4:6).

1 Cor 1:26-31
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are, 29 that no man should boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord."
NASB

So, no...the normal Christian experience is growth in the knowledge and grace of God -- hardly a boring endeavor, as you have suggested. Just as lost, dying sinners grow physically from infancy, to childhood, to adulthood, so, too, do Christians grow spiritually from babes to maturity. In fact, living the Christian life is quite challenging in more ways than one.

Gotta run. Time for a java refill.
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:30 PM   #4792
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It's not a theory. It's a biblical truth.
Meaning you can't prove it.
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:32 PM   #4793
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Oh...maybe that a random event is an accidental one, according to M-W's definition? Just a wild, crazy guess....
Which does not answer the question "What's your point?"
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:52 PM   #4794
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And all those many constants just came together by sheer accident to support life on this one earth.
That statement is like saying that sometime in the distant past 1 and 3 came together by sheer accident and created 4. Sorry but that's just plain silly.
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Oh, I know...I know...just because life hasn't been found yet on any of those hypothetical universes out there doesn't mean that the discovery of same isn't just around the bend...

And until those scientists make their great discovery, the Antrophic Principle remains a very strong argument for the design, purpose and intentionalty behind the existence of the universe.
No, it is not. I made my case in the simplest terms I could and you still do not understand it.
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So, answer these questions: Why is the universe what it is and not something else? Or do you believe that the universe necessarily cannot be something else?
At this time the correct (and honest) answer is we don't know. The answer is not to be found in scripture.
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:56 PM   #4795
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But you can't be certain about ever winning.
I'm told some people make a living at it.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:00 PM   #4796
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how do you know that?
How do you not know that?
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:06 PM   #4797
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Your above question presupposes a finite God.
Why must God be infinite?
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:12 PM   #4798
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How do you not know that?
How do I know what? To which statement of mine do you refer?
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:36 PM   #4799
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How do I know what? To which statement of mine do you refer?
Poor short term memory eh.
You know that my previous post said Man is more than a machine, even if biomechanical aspects are noted.
Anyone who believes that man is only a machine is detached and alienated.
I'm moving on.
Eric Berne wrote the book "Games People Play" and I'm not going to play your "How do you know that?" game.
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:09 PM   #4800
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The thread is definitely mis-titled. I posted this on page 1, and Boxcar has continued to deliver his tripe up as some form of ultimate truth.

I feel sympathy for the Christians reading through this thread, which I'm now convinced does not include the OP.

Which leads me to wonder, what really is going on here?

a. Boxcar is really on to something, and the rest of us will just be lucky to avoid him and his ilk by going to Hell? (seems like a good deal right now)

b. Boxcar is mentally ill with some sort of God-complex, and someday soon we'll see CNN's lead story about his untimely end pushing cyanide laced Kool-Aid on his unsuspecting flock? (this can happen when you start talking to God)

c. Boxcar is really working for Team Satan, intent on driving as many people away from Christ and the Bible as possible with his insufferable diatribes? (this makes the most sense to me - I'd put his saved vs. alienated ratio at somewhere around 1 to 47)

d. Boxcar is wrong, I'm wrong, Actor is wrong, and we all get squished tomorrow by a large boot zooming down from space like in a bad episode of the Twilight Zone? (at this point, I don't think we'd be that lucky...)

e. Other?
"C" is the most likely scenario...as far as I am concerned. I admit that he had me fooled for quite a while...but I finally figured him out.

If Boxcar isn't on Satan's payroll...he SHOULD be. And...he might be due for a hefty bonus, to boot.
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