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Old 10-23-2021, 07:30 PM   #196
fast4522
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Launching an ad hominem attack against me is not a reason. Why must God sentence all sinners to hell -- or by implication declare all sinners innocent and send them all to heaven? Why must it be all or nothing? You must give a rational, coherent explanation for why God would be unjust unless it's an all or nothing deal one way or the other.
What is wrong in saying God is willing to forgive almost anything, but you have to let him in.
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Old 10-23-2021, 07:43 PM   #197
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Launching an ad hominem attack against me is not a reason. Why must God sentence all sinners to hell -- or by implication declare all sinners innocent and send them all to heaven? Why must it be all or nothing? You must give a rational, coherent explanation for why God would be unjust unless it's an all or nothing deal one way or the other.
YOU were the one who proposed the "what if all" scenario, in post #193. And now you ask ME why everything must be "all or nothing"? Logical debate is obviously not your strong suit.

You are the one who supports the outrageous notion that "many people are predestined for eternal destruction". And I asked how a person who is predestined for eternal destruction can be held to blame for his inevitable fate. You couldn't give me a reasonable answer...so you came up with your nonsensical "what if all" reply in post #193.
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:16 PM   #198
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YOU were the one who proposed the "what if all" scenario, in post #193. And now you ask ME why everything must be "all or nothing"? Logical debate is obviously not your strong suit.

You are the one who supports the outrageous notion that "many people are predestined for eternal destruction". And I asked how a person who is predestined for eternal destruction can be held to blame for his inevitable fate. You couldn't give me a reasonable answer...so you came up with your nonsensical "what if all" reply in post #193.
I asked a logical question that showed the intellectual bankruptcy to your lame objection that if God predestines many to hell, then how can they possibly be held morally accountable? I just took your conclusion to the next level and basically said that if God predestined all to hell, then how would that differ one iota from what you concluded about the "many"!? If the predestined "many" shouldn't be held morally responsible, then why should the predestined "all" be held accountable? Would not both groups be predestined to the same fate? How does the number of people (many or all) alter God's justice!?

I take it that you have no rational answer.
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:24 PM   #199
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What is wrong in saying God is willing to forgive almost anything, but you have to let him in.
Are you saying that it's up to the spiritually dead to decide one way or the other? So...if two spiritually dead people -- John and Jack -- made a decision, with John choosing to believe the gospel and Jack choosing to not believe, should we infer from this that John wasn't quite as spiritually dead as Jack? Or that John was smarter than Jack? Or maybe John was a more virtuous sinner than Jack? In other words, can you give me a biblical reason of how one was able to make the right choice, while the other was not?
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:38 PM   #200
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I asked a logical question that showed the intellectual bankruptcy to your lame objection that if God predestines many to hell, then how can they possibly be held morally accountable? I just took your conclusion to the next level and basically said that if God predestined all to hell, then how would that differ one iota from what you concluded about the "many"!? If the predestined "many" shouldn't be held morally responsible, then why should the predestined "all" be held accountable? Would not both groups be predestined to the same fate? How does the number of people (many or all) alter God's justice!?

I take it that you have no rational answer.
You can't possibly be as dumb as you sound here. The "injustice" stems from the alleged "fact" that God discriminates by 'saving' some of the sinners, while predeterminately sentensing the others to eternal damnation. If he sentensed ALL the sinners to eternal damnation...then the injustice of discrimination would obviously be absent.
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Old 10-23-2021, 08:43 PM   #201
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Are you saying that it's up to the spiritually dead to decide one way or the other? So...if two spiritually dead people -- John and Jack -- made a decision, with John choosing to believe the gospel and Jack choosing to not believe, should we infer from this that John wasn't quite as spiritually dead as Jack? Or that John was smarter than Jack? Or maybe John was a more virtuous sinner than Jack? In other words, can you give me a biblical reason of how one was able to make the right choice, while the other was not?
No I am saying it does not have to be as hard as you make it. Your detail is extraordinary, but I am seeing the younger people going for really is why they want without all of that.
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Old 10-23-2021, 09:24 PM   #202
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I knew of him.

Jesús María Rojas Alou (born March 24, 1942) is a Dominican former professional baseball outfielder. During a 15-year Major League Baseball (MLB) career, he played for the San Francisco Giants (1963–68), Houston Astros (1969–73; 1978–79), Oakland Athletics (1973–74), and New York Mets (1975). He was the youngest of the trio of baseball-playing brothers that included Felipe and Matty.
WHO HERE WANTS TO SEE 46zilzal DEBATE light????

ME!!!

Subject: JESUS of NAZERETH

GO!
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Old 10-23-2021, 09:44 PM   #203
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WHO HERE WANTS TO SEE 46zilzal DEBATE light????

ME!!!

Subject: JESUS of NAZERETH

GO!


They deserve each other.
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Old 10-24-2021, 01:43 AM   #204
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Hmmm...My "truncated" bible has a different theme, thank you. His name is Jesus, and Jesus encompasses more than God's love. And not all mankind's destiny is to share in the "life in the Trinity". Many have been predestined to eternal destruction. Judas comes immediately to mind.
That doesn't sound complicated at all. So we have no need of these...

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+r...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Old 10-24-2021, 07:09 AM   #205
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You can't possibly be as dumb as you sound here. The "injustice" stems from the alleged "fact" that God discriminates by 'saving' some of the sinners, while predeterminately sentensing the others to eternal damnation. If he sentensed ALL the sinners to eternal damnation...then the injustice of discrimination would obviously be absent.
Now you're cookin' with gas! You have finally provided a reason (well, I'm being generous here). Why didn't you say that in the beginning instead of insulting me?

So, God would be discriminating? (That's the same lame reason your bud Light gave -- bad pun intended.) Okay...so let's run with discrimination to see how that plays out.

Question: What would be the basis of God's discrimination? Age, Sex, Race, Social Status, what?
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Old 10-24-2021, 07:18 AM   #206
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That doesn't sound complicated at all. So we have no need of these...

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+r...hrome&ie=UTF-8
You know, Doc, we've known each other for quite some time. And I would think that by now you would have surmised something pretty obvious about me: While I substantially and essentially hold to the Reformed Tradition of the Faith, I'm not a cookie cutter believer in that tradition. Heck...I don't even subscribe to Covenant Theology, so that itself is a huge departure from the Tradition. And my eschatology would also be considered a wee bit strange by many if not most in Reformed Faith.
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Old 10-24-2021, 07:34 AM   #207
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No I am saying it does not have to be as hard as you make it. Your detail is extraordinary, but I am seeing the younger people going for really is why they want without all of that.
This is precisely why the Church (capital C) is in such dismal spiritual shape today. "Younger people" don't want to immerse themselves into the Word of God to learn the theology of the bible! They're too busy living life, too busy playing with their mobile devices, too busy playing video games, too busy playing church, to busy being religious! If ask a young person one of my two favorite bible questions, the vast majority of them would give the wrong answer -- because they have this "churchy" view of God that they learned from a young pastor who is as clueless as they are.

What's hard is not my theology. What's "hard" is to make the commitment to knuckle down and study the bible on a routine basis at home with a humble and prayerful attitude. Biblical Theology, for your info, is beyond awesome -- it is indescribably glorious, so much so that it truly inspires fear of the Lord and love for him and adoration for him and obedience to him -- because biblical theology proves that the scriptures were truly divinely inspired, for man simply does not think like God.. The prophet Isaiah was right!

It's really that simple.
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Old 10-24-2021, 09:19 AM   #208
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Boxcar,

THIS is what I was speaking of when I said something like "regurgitating scripture."

Now you are TALKING.

Better, you actually not so much LECTURING as CONVERSING.

Better still, the CONDEMNING TONE has changed to an attempt to reason.

The Story of Frank & Evangelism
Many years ago, a dear friend of mine and devout Christian asked me how many times should he present the gospel to someone before giving up.

He said that he was a pariah at work - that people hide from him when they see him coming.

This is pretty close to the actual conversation we had.

Me: I think you have misunderstood evangelism.
You think that you should (essentially) go door to door and tell everyone the good news.

Of course, if we all did that every street in America would have someone knocking on every door 5 times a day. What happens when 2 people get there at once? Should you both go to the door at the same time?

And what if there were 3 or 5?

Frank: That would be silly. Just one should go.

Me: Great. Which one?

Frank: Well, I think we could figure it out.

Me: Who would be best to figure it out?

Frank: I don't know. (Jokingly) The guy with the biggest bible?

Me: I'm thinking God could make that decision better than any of us.

Frank: I can agree with that.

Me: Why don't you just go to the doors that God would have you knock on?

Frank: Because I don't know which those would be.

Me: And you, as a real believer don't think God could communicate that to you?

Frank: Call me slow. I don't hear Him telling me what to do.

Me: Yes, I am a little slow at that myself.
See, that's not really evangelism. That's SALES.

Evangelism is when GOD DECIDES that someone NEEDS the gospel and is READY to hear it. Perhaps HE has PREPARED them for the moment.

Then GOD PICKS exactly the right PERSON to do the presenting. He even picks the MOMENT and LOCATION when this presentation should happen.
Frank: Well, I've never had a message that said go to 1234 Main Street. LOL

Me: I contend that you have. Perhaps you didn't realize it.
God doesn't actually send an address.

God contrives a situation where you and the other person are in the same place at the same time and creates some connection or engagement between you.

He picked you because you had the NECESSARY QUALIFICATIONS - whatever those are - to be the right person for the job.
This changed Frank's understanding and ultimately, his relationship with God.


There is way more to the Frank Story.
He's actually been in a coma since Jan. 24, 2020.


Dave

Some of you may feel this is just too preachy.
Sorry if anyone feels that way but not sorry I posted it.

Last edited by Dave Schwartz; 10-24-2021 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 10-24-2021, 10:48 AM   #209
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Boxcar,

THIS is what I was speaking of when I said something like "regurgitating scripture."

Now you are TALKING.

Better, you actually not so much LECTURING as CONVERSING.

Better still, the CONDEMNING TONE has changed to an attempt to reason.

The Story of Frank & Evangelism
Many years ago, a dear friend of mine and devout Christian asked me how many times should he present the gospel to someone before giving up.

He said that he was a pariah at work - that people hide from him when they see him coming.

This is pretty close to the actual conversation we had.

Me: I think you have misunderstood evangelism.
You think that you should (essentially) go door to door and tell everyone the good news.

Of course, if we all did that every street in America would have someone knocking on every door 5 times a day. What happens when 2 people get there at once? Should you both go to the door at the same time?

And what if there were 3 or 5?

Frank: That would be silly. Just one should go.

Me: Great. Which one?

Frank: Well, I think we could figure it out.

Me: Who would be best to figure it out?

Frank: I don't know. (Jokingly) The guy with the biggest bible?

Me: I'm thinking God could make that decision better than any of us.

Frank: I can agree with that.

Me: Why don't you just go to the doors that God would have you knock on?

Frank: Because I don't know which those would be.

Me: And you, as a real believer don't think God could communicate that to you?

Frank: Call me slow. I don't hear Him telling me what to do.

Me: Yes, I am a little slow at that myself.
See, that's not really evangelism. That's SALES.

Evangelism is when GOD DECIDES that someone NEEDS the gospel and is READY to hear it. Perhaps HE has PREPARED them for the moment.

Then GOD PICKS exactly the right PERSON to do the presenting. He even picks the MOMENT and LOCATION when this presentation should happen.
Frank: Well, I've never had a message that said go to 1234 Main Street. LOL

Me: I contend that you have. Perhaps you didn't realize it.
God doesn't actually send an address.

God contrives a situation where you and the other person are in the same place at the same time and creates some connection or engagement between you.

He picked you because you had the NECESSARY QUALIFICATIONS - whatever those are - to be the right person for the job.
This changed Frank's understanding and ultimately, his relationship with God.


There is way more to the Frank Story.
He's actually been in a coma since Jan. 24, 2020.


Dave

Some of you may feel this is just too preachy.
Sorry if anyone feels that way but not sorry I posted it.
I always understood evangelism to be at least two things: a.) What you have just essentially stated which is to be sensitive to the Lord's leading and to as equally aware of opportunities to share the gospel of the kingdom with people. We shouldn't forget that Jesus came the first time to seek and to save the lost. And did He not send out the 12 and then the 70 to seek lost souls? So, for example, there is nothing wrong with door-to-door evangelism or street evangelism.

Perhaps later I'll share a fascinating story that a brother shared with me when he was doing some street evangelism in downtown Delray Beach in the evening not too long ago. The story contains your element of sensitivity to God's leading and also the element of seizing the moment of opportunity.
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Old 10-24-2021, 12:37 PM   #210
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This is the entire Protestant movement

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Originally Posted by dnlgfnk View Post
That doesn't sound complicated at all. So we have no need of these...

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+r...hrome&ie=UTF-8
It is not complicated for my fundamentalist "Protest"ant Baptist Minister brother. "We're allowed to interpret the Bible, but not if it leads us to Catholic conclusions".

My Brother: I'm not protesting against anything.
Me: Your protesting against the "Mass".

Last edited by porchy44; 10-24-2021 at 12:52 PM.
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