Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Not only is Boxcar's love for God "fear-based"...it is also purely CONDITIONAL. He "loves" God only because he believes that this "love" will get him into the "Heavenly Kingdom". When we love someone and expect a "reward" in return...is that the sort of love that we should be proud of?

As usual, you don't know scripture or understand grace.

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, BECAUSE He first loved us.
NASB

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

As usual, you don't know scripture or understand grace.

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, BECAUSE He first loved us.
NASB

God didn't "love you first", Boxcar...he BARGAINED with you. He asked for your "love and devotion"...and promised you the "heavenly life" in return. This isn't "love"...it's a BUSINESS arrangement.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

God didn't "love you first", Boxcar...he BARGAINED with you. He asked for your "love and devotion"...and promised you the "heavenly life" in return. This isn't "love"...it's a BUSINESS arrangement.

As I said, you don't understand the grand concept of grace. You're confusing biblical Christianity with other world religions whereby God becomes indebted to his people for their good works. God owes the do-gooders their wages. In that scheme there is a quid pro quo arrangement.

To understand how grace works study Paul's conversion experience in Acts 9. See if you can find the "business arrangement" you talk about in that chapter.

[Lemon Drop Husker]

Mortality is a tough acceptance. We will all die. We all want to believe there is a purpose to our lives.

While science has completely stripped most of anything regarding religion as any kind of factual basis, we have Billions on this planet holding on to faith.

As long as you don't harm me or my family or engage in ridiculous shit, I'm pretty much OK. If your religion believes in the eradication of anybody, then I have a few problems.

Carry on.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

As I said, you don't understand the grand concept of grace. You're confusing biblical Christianity with other world religions whereby God becomes indebted to his people for their good works. God owes the do-gooders their wages. In that scheme there is a quid pro quo arrangement.

To understand how grace works study Paul's conversion experience in Acts 9. See if you can find the "business arrangement" you talk about in that chapter.

My bible-reading days are far behind me. There was so much violence depicted there that I thought I was reading the Quran. The biblical God speaks of "grace" with one breath...and with the NEXT breath, he instructs his followers to "bash the skulls of the infants against the rocks". If I want horror...I'd rather pick up a Stephen King novel.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

My bible-reading days are far behind me. There was so much violence depicted there that I thought I was reading the Quran. The biblical God speaks of "grace" with one breath...and with the NEXT breath, he instructs his followers to "bash the skulls of the infants against the rocks". If I want horror...I'd rather pick up a Stephen King novel.

Too bad all the days of your deliberate misrepresentation of the bible aren't also far behind you, as well.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Not only is Boxcar's love for God "fear-based"...it is also purely CONDITIONAL. He "loves" God only because he believes that this "love" will get him into the "Heavenly Kingdom". When we love someone and expect a "reward" in return...is that the sort of love that we should be proud of?

"Love me or I will kill you! Love me or I will torture you forever" is not love. It's rape.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And if scripture proves nothing, then why did you ask me earlier to provide biblical proof that God forbids human sacrifices in his Law?

For the sake of argument.

[Actor]

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins – The God Delusion

sadomasochistic

God injures so that he can heal
Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. KJV

God's perfect servant exults and the pain he causes
Job 6:8 – 10 “O that I might have my request, and that God would grant my desire; that it would please God to crush me, that he would let loose his hand and cut me off! This would be my consolation; I would even exult in pain unsparing; for I have not denied the words of the Holy One. RSV

God kills and maims
Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.” RSV

The Lord kills and brings to life
1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. KJV

God will heal the harm he causes
2 Chronicles 7:13 – 14 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. KJV

God desired to cause pain and suffering
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. NIV

God punishes with wounds
Jeremiah 10:18 – 19 For thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am slinging out the inhabitants of the land at this time, and I will bring distress on them, that they may feel it.” Woe is me because of my hurt! My wound is grievous. But I said, “Truly this is an affliction, and I must bear it.” RSV

The Lord adds sorrow to pain, then ends it with disaster
Jeremiah 45:3 – 5 You said, ‘Woe is me! for the Lord has added sorrow to my pain; I am weary with my groaning, and I find no rest.’ Thus shall you say to him, Thus says the Lord: Behold, what I have built I am breaking down, and what I have planted I am plucking up—that is, the whole land. And do you seek great things for yourself? Seek them not; for behold, I am bringing evil upon all flesh, says the Lord; but I will give you your life as a prize of war in all places to which you may go. RSV

The Lord causes evil
Amos 3:6 shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? KJV

God gets pleasure from those who fear him
Psalm 147:11 The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy. KJV

He wants his people to be happy to be afraid of him
Psalm 112: 1 Praise ye the Lord. Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. KJV

You are happy if you are afraid
Psalm 128:1 Blessed is every one who fears the Lord... RSV

He will protect you if you fear him
Psalms 33:18 – 19 Behold, the eye of the Lord is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy; To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine. KJV

He wants the world to fear him
Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. KJV

Walk in fear
Deuteronomy 8:6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him. KJV

God wants only fear
Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul KJV

You can only be God's friend if you are afraid of him
Psalm 25:14 The friendship of the Lord is for those who fear him RSV

Children how to be afraid
Psalm 34:11 Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the Lord. KJV

The people fear him who loves them
Psalm 118:4 Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth for ever. KJV

Fear and dread
Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the Lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. KJV

"God terrifies me”
Job 23:15 – 16 Therefore I am terrified at his presence; when I consider, I am in dread of him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me; RSV

Don't hit me, God
Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. KJV

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

For the sake of argument.

And for the "sake of argument" you use scripture which proves nothing to prove the points you have been vainly been trying to make these last couple of weeks or so? When I quote scripture, scripture proves nothing. But when you quote it, it proves everything. And all this proves that you foolish insistence on touting your dumb mantra is self-defeating.

Why am I not surprised?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

And for the "sake of argument" you use scripture which proves nothing to prove the points you have been vainly been trying to make these last couple of weeks or so?

Context! Context! Context! I'm trying to prove that a fictitious character (God) is the most unpleasant character in all fiction. If I were trying to prove that Hamlet (a fictitious character) was insane would you expect me to go outside the works of Shakespeare? Of course not. But, like scripture, Shakespeare proves nothing.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

Context! Context! Context! I'm trying to prove that a fictitious character (God) is the most unpleasant character in all fiction. If I were trying to prove that Hamlet (a fictitious character) was insane would you expect me to go outside the works of Shakespeare? Of course not. But, like scripture, Shakespeare proves nothing.

So...if Shakespeare proves NOTHING (and "nothing" is the operative term here) then why would you use Shakespeare to try to prove SOMETHING about Hamlet? Can you not see the inherent contradiction in your folly? You're using something that intrinsically has no validity (according to you) to try to make a valid point! You're using something that has no material relevance to anything to prove something of relevance.

You should quit while your brain is only this far behind your finger tips.

[Actor]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You're using something that has no material relevance to anything to prove something of relevance.

No. I'm using something that has no relevance to prove something that also has no relevance. Whether or not Hamlet was sane is irrelevant because the play itself is irrelevant, i.e., it's fiction. It's of interest to playgoers, Shakespearean scholars, actors, etc. but to no one else.

Likewise the question of whether God is good is irrelevant because God is irrelevant, i.e., he's fictitious.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

No. I'm using something that has no relevance to prove something that also has no relevance. Whether or not Hamlet was sane is irrelevant because the play itself is irrelevant, i.e., it's fiction. It's of interest to playgoers, Shakespearean scholars, actors, etc. but to no one else.[/b]

(emphasis added is mine)

You really don't listen to yourself, do you? Because the play is of "interest" to some doesn't equate that is of no interest to all, i.e. that the play its totally irrelevant. It has relevance to the "some" or perhaps even to "many". Therefore, the contradiction remains! You are using something you say is [totally] irrelevant to prove that the play is relevant to some or even many. You're using something that you say has no value to anyone prove that it has value to some or many. (And to add more insult to injury to yourself, you can't really be sure of any of these claims due to the Principle of Uncertainty.)

Likewise the question of whether God is good is irrelevant because God is irrelevant, i.e., he's fictitious.

[/quote]

Another contradiction, of course! You're using scripture that you say is totally irrelevant to make the relevant point that it is fiction.

Moreover, when you say that "Scripture proves nothing", there's an implicit contradiction in this statement; for you have been using, according to you, worthless scripture to prove something you believe is worthwhile. (Unless, of course, you consider your above claim about the irrelevancy of God to be worthless! But how can you do this since "Scripture proves NOTHING"? Yet you claim to be proving SOMETHING. You are like some of your fellow moonbat priests of scientism who postulate a universe that has come from "nothing" only to turn around and invariably make the eternal "nothing" to really something!

[Actor]

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” - Richard Dawkins – The God Delusion

capriciously malevolent

God claims credit for good and evil
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? KJV

Praise God for evil disasters
Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? KJV

Who else, but God, unleashes the wicked?
Job 9:23 – 24 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? KJV

God created wicked people so he could cause trouble
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. KJV

God creates disabled people
Exodus 4:11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? KJV

God gave Israel bad commandments, and punished them for it!
Ezekiel 20:25 – 26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord. KJV

God hardened hearts of the neighboring kingdoms, then destroyed them for that
Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses. KJV

God will affect you with every melody, named and unnamed
Deuteronomy 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. KJV

God punishes the widows and orphans of nonbelievers
Isaiah 9:17 Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. KJV

God promised to destroy his people who worshipped someone else…
Exodus 32:7 – 10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’”
“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-neckedpeople. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” NIV

...But then changed his mind
Exodus 32:11 – 14 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. NIV

God restrained himself and changed his mind
Ezekiel 20:21 – 22 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness. Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth. KJV

The Lord backtracked about his announced disaster
Jeremiah 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah or anyone else in Judah put him to death? Did not Hezekiah fear the Lord and seek his favor? And did not the Lord relent, so that he did not bring the disaster he pronounced against them? We are about to bring a terrible disaster on ourselves! NIV

The Lord regretted his decision
1 Samuel 15:10 – 11 Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night. KJV