What Could Have Been?

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt

The competition has definitely been made out to be weak.

On the other hand, maybe he fails his drug test. Or maybe he wins the TC like Justify and then we find out about last year's drug test....

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I heard that he said that also, but I find it hard to believe he really believes that Hoist The Flag was better than Seattle Slew. Of course Slew moved up a bit at 4 under Cordero, but SS was ridiculous right from the start of his career. He was getting left, rushing up, raced on a bad rail, and was winning with a ton in reserve even before his Champagne blowout. His Derby field was suspect, but very few horses I have ever seen would have won with that trip. That horse was insane. How many other horses have that much brilliant speed and also have the stamina reserves to come again at 12F (against Exceller no less) after a savage duel. Maybe one?

This. The two races against Affirmed confirm that if Seattle Slew hadn't had his injuries and had a longer career, he might have been one of the greatest horses of all time. He was a speed horse that could survive bad breaks and speed duels and could go on and on.

And while Jean wasn't on him in those later races, he certainly was aboard for the horse's amazing 2 and 3 year old performances. I agree with class- I can't imagine he really would rate HTF higher.

[myohmyjustify]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I heard that he said that also, but I find it hard to believe he really believes that Hoist The Flag was better than Seattle Slew. Of course Slew moved up a bit at 4 under Cordero, but SS was ridiculous right from the start of his career. He was getting left, rushing up, raced on a bad rail, and was winning with a ton in reserve even before his Champagne blowout. His Derby field was suspect, but very few horses I have ever seen would have won with that trip. That horse was insane. How many other horses have that much brilliant speed and also have the stamina reserves to come again at 12F (against Exceller no less) after a savage duel. Maybe one?

FWI, Here is what Cruguet said per the Wiki page on Hoist the Flag:

'Jockey Jean Cruguet would reiterate and amplify his remarks in an August 2011 interview with Brisnet.

"Hoist the Flag was the best horse I ever rode, by far... It wasn't Seattle Slew. The first time I ever got on Hoist the Flag (as a two-year-old), I told everyone I knew that I was going to win the Kentucky Derby with this horse. The only reason I didn't say 'the Triple Crown' was because I was so new in this county I didn't even know what the Triple Crown was. I'd never even heard of it. If he hadn't broke down (early in his three-year-old season but eventually saved for stud duties), Hoist the Flag would have been 1-9 to win the Triple Crown. "Seattle Slew was a top miler, and because he was so much better than everyone else that year he was able to win the Triple Crown, but Hoist the Flag would have beat everyone else going any distance at any time. He was just that much better than everyone else."[6]'

[biggestal99]

danzig. 3 for 3 abd then injured. hellva good sire.

Allan

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by myohmyjustify

FWI, Here is what Cruguet said per the Wiki page on Hoist the Flag:

'Jockey Jean Cruguet would reiterate and amplify his remarks in an August 2011 interview with Brisnet.

"Hoist the Flag was the best horse I ever rode, by far... It wasn't Seattle Slew. The first time I ever got on Hoist the Flag (as a two-year-old), I told everyone I knew that I was going to win the Kentucky Derby with this horse. The only reason I didn't say 'the Triple Crown' was because I was so new in this county I didn't even know what the Triple Crown was. I'd never even heard of it. If he hadn't broke down (early in his three-year-old season but eventually saved for stud duties), Hoist the Flag would have been 1-9 to win the Triple Crown. "Seattle Slew was a top miler, and because he was so much better than everyone else that year he was able to win the Triple Crown, but Hoist the Flag would have beat everyone else going any distance at any time. He was just that much better than everyone else."[6]'

Calling Seattle Slew a miler is like calling Round Table a turf horse.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Calling Seattle Slew a miler is like calling Round Table a turf horse.

Miler?

No doubt Hoist The Flag was an extremely fast and talented horse, but I don't see how you can make that comparison before he even stretched out and faced all the other top 3yos in a highly competitive race like the Derby let alone all time great Hall Of Fame horses like Slew did later.

I think Cruguet probably still had some hard feelings over losing the mount on Slew when he said that. He criticized Doug Peterson's preparation for the race where he lost to Dr. Patches and lost the mount. It was unfortunate for him because he was probably right that Slew was still a bit short, but then we wouldn't have gotten to see Cordero on him. That was a match made in heaven.

[ronsmac]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Miler?

No doubt Hoist The Flag was an extremely fast and talented horse, but I don't see how you can make that comparison before he even stretched out and faced all the other top 3yos in a highly competitive race like the Derby let alone all time great Hall Of Fame horses like Slew did later.

I think Cruguet probably still had some hard feelings over losing the mount on Slew when he said that. He criticized Doug Peterson's preparation for the race where he lost to Dr. Patches and lost the mount. It was unfortunate for him because he was probably right that Slew was still a bit short, but then we wouldn't have gotten to see Cordero on him. That was a match made in heaven.

I didn't know anything about Hoist The Flag but the time of 121 in the Bay Shore looks like a really good time. Older 35k males and 3yo alw horses both ran 7F in 123 1/5th that day.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I think Cruguet probably still had some hard feelings over losing the mount on Slew when he said that. He criticized Doug Peterson's preparation for the race where he lost to Dr. Patches and lost the mount. It was unfortunate for him because he was probably right that Slew was still a bit short...

He definitely was a bit short because no horse could be prepared for the ride Cruguet gave Slew in the Paterson.

What trainer in the history of racing was capable of having a horse fit to go 9 furlongs full out from the gate in a major stakes?

Slew was giving 14 lbs to Dr. Patches, who was primarily known as a sprinter up to that point. On what planet did Cruguet think he needed to keep away from Dr. Patches in the early stages by establishing a clear lead at a breakneck pace? Slew had faced pace company before and settled fairly well (Preakness, Derby), why wouldn't it be the same sitting alongside Dr. Patches early rather than playing "catch me if you can" & providing a target for that horse?

Imagine if Flavien Prat on Flightline was so worried about Life is Good that he decided he need to be 3 lengths in front of him throughout in the BC Classic...Rich Strike might still be trained by Eric Reed...

[classhandicapper]

I once got into a debate about Slew's career with someone that was very skeptical. He grudgingly conceded that overcoming Cruguet was one of the points in his favor. Then again, he also thought Slew would have been even better in another trainer's hands. I thought Turner was pretty good back in those days and did a good job with Slew until he gave in to the owners and went to CA. Personal issues may have derailed his career after that.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

I once got into a debate about Slew's career with someone that was very skeptical. He grudgingly conceded that overcoming Cruguet was one of the points in his favor. Then again, he also thought Slew would have been even better in another trainer's hands. I thought Turner was pretty good back in those days and did a good job with Slew until he gave in to the owners and went to CA. Personal issues may have derailed his career after that.

I don't think you can criticize too harshly any trainer who managed a lightly raced horse to the TC (remember before that every TC winner had been much more experienced than Slew) but I will say I went back and looked at the publicity surrounding the trip to Hollywood Park and Turner revised history quite a bit. He was all in, 100%, thought the horse was in great shape going into the race and recommended it to Mickey and Karen, which was part of the reason they got so pissed at him and fired him after Slew's poor performance. It was only after getting fired that suddenly he claimed to have objected to running in the Swaps.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

I don't think you can criticize too harshly any trainer who managed a lightly raced horse to the TC (remember before that every TC winner had been much more experienced than Slew) but I will say I went back and looked at the publicity surrounding the trip to Hollywood Park and Turner revised history quite a bit. He was all in, 100%, thought the horse was in great shape going into the race and recommended it to Mickey and Karen, which was part of the reason they got so pissed at him and fired him after Slew's poor performance. It was only after getting fired that suddenly he claimed to have objected to running in the Swaps.

Public statements are tricky.

You can’t know what what he was thinking and saying privately.

It’s not like he could come out before the race and publicly say, “I am against this idea because I’d like to freshen the horse up for a summer campaign but the owners are insisting we go to California for the increased purse”.

Those discussions are going to occur privately and if you train Slew it’s going to be tough to say “No” and potentially lose the horse.

On that controversy I’ve always favored Turner’s version because he’s the horseman and giving the horse a freshening was what most trainers would do even back then. Of course that doesn’t mean I’m right.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Don't forget Ibn Bey, the European horse who ran his eyeballs out!

Today's French Derby winner Ace Impact remained undefeated with his win & may be a horse to reckon with if he travels to Britain this summer as he trounced 2 horses that finished up close in the Dante Stakes last month.

4th dam is the dam of Ibn Bey.

[classhandicapper]

Here are Hoist The Flag's PPs

Twitter

__________________
"Unlearning is the highest form of learning"

[PalaceOfFortLarned]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Here are Hoist The Flag's PPs


https://twitter.com/HorseRacingPPs/s...12827708092418

Challenged maybe once in his career and still won by nearly 2 lengths.

[Spalding No!]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

Here are Hoist The Flag's PPs


https://twitter.com/HorseRacingPPs/s...12827708092418

The hilarious part about this silly comparison of a horse that didn't even make it to the spring of his 3yo year & a colt that won the Triple Crown and returned from oblivion to dominate a fellow Triple Crown winner & deliver one of the greatest performances in defeat, is that I don't even think you can say Hoist the Flag was a better horse up to the parallel point where his career ended.

While Hoist the Flag smashed a stakes record in the Bay Shore in his second (and final) start of his 3yo year, Seattle Slew destroyed a track record at Hialeah over the same distance in his first start at 3.

Also, Slew, unlike Hoist the Flag, actually won the Champagne and ran the fastest 2yo mile at Belmont ever (which would include 1970) when he did it. Furthermore, when Slew won his second start at 7 furlongs, they galloped him out an extra furlong to prepare for the Champagne and he was clocked in 1:35 1/5.

And if you need evidence that Cruguet is either bitter, biased, disingenuous or otherwise misinformed, here's what he said when asked if Slew was tiring in his first try at 9 furlongs in the Flamingo (won geared down in 1:47 2/5):

"How could he?" Cruguet countered. "I never asked him to really run. He could have gone much faster. If we had given the green light to break a record, I think Slew would've broken the track record easily and perhaps the world record."

Some "miler"...