Steve Crist: California Board Skews Takeout tale

[DJofSD]

December 26th, eh?

Psssst - pass the word, boycot opening day Santa Anita.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by DJofSD

December 26th, eh?

Psssst - pass the word, boycot opening day Santa Anita.

You know as well as I do that that particular day is the day there is a migration to Satellite facilities and Santa Anita for the Calendars . I haven't gone to get one in years but that is a tough day to keep people away.


Whenever it is called or if it is called I will participate.

[InsideThePylons-MW]

Originally Posted by Ernie Dahlman

I saw Dragone's eyes roll back in frustration, and I opened my mouth to begin my stump speech about how takeout was too high already and a reduction was the only path to long-term growth. Kenny jumped in a second before I could begin.

You say I'm disingenuous for not printing this nonsense? Do you really think if Crist would have opened his mouth one second sooner we wouldn't have had a takeout increase?

The beauty of the autobiography.

[Bruddah]

Originally Posted by andymays

I'm not quite sure on this one.

If you're saying I'm somehow the enemy then no Amen Bruddah. If you saying we need to listen and cooperate with one another to defeat the guys that are destroying the game then absolutely. Amen Bruddah!

What I am saying is, Bettors/ Handicappers/ Fans would rather argue, bitch, complain and be disagreeable among themselves. They can't or won't focus thier comtempt, frustrations and anger on the enemy. ( powers to be etc.) If it takes the least little bit of organization or effort to direct their energies toward an appropriate target, then it's Hell no, let's just argue among ourselves. Basically, this group is thier own worst enemy.

You have been extremely touchy lately. It shows in your posts. Now can I get an Amen Bruddah!

[andymays]

Originally Posted by Bruddah

What I am saying is, Bettors/ Handicappers/ Fans would rather argue, bitch, complain and be disagreeable among themselves. They can't or won't focus thier comtempt, frustrations and anger on the enemy. ( powers to be etc.) If it takes the least little bit of organization or effort to direct their energies toward an appropriate target, then it's Hell no, let's just argue among ourselves. Basically, this group is thier own worst enemy.

You have been extremely touchy lately. It shows in your posts. Now can I get an Amen Bruddah!

That's me "touchy Andy". Yes, I've been wound pretty tight over the issue because I'm working on it and following it every day. There is no love lost between myself and some of the Racing Officials and Racing Executives in California.

Give HANA a chance on this one. I've been critical in the past on certain issues but I believe they will lead the way on this.

Absolutely. Amen Bruddah.

[thaskalos]

Andymays is putting too much stress on himself unnecessarily, IMO.

This is not Andy's fight, or HANA's fight...THIS IS OUR FIGHT!

This is the fight of ALL the bettors who have supported this game for many years, and have received a slap in the face, instead of the respect they deserve.

They say that we are the customers...as if the racetrack is like a grocery store. What is it exactly that they think we are "buying"...if we are just customers? When the game has been mathematically engineered to insure defeat to at least 98% of the "customer base"...what do they think they are selling us?

Are they selling us entertainment? If they are under the impression that they are in the entertainment business, I suggest that they stand by the doors of their establishments, as the people are leaving after "the show" is over.

Do the customers appear entertained?

They are in the gambling business...pure and simple. And their product is already the most heavily taxed product out there...by far. As a result, the people are finding other games to play...and who can blame them?

But there are some customers, like us, who are still hanging on. We love this game, and have little interest in the other games being offered out there.

And we have waited patiently for common sense to eventually prevail among the leadership of this great game. A way which would put an end to the adversarial relationship between this "business" and its "customers".

And then they come up with a solution like this. Raise taxes, and make the customer shoulder the burden of curing this ailing sport.

The industry is spitting in our faces, ladies and gentlemen...and if we need HANA or Andymays to tell us this...then, we are about as smart as the industry thinks we are.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Andymays is putting too much stress on himself unnecessarily, IMO.

This is not Andy's fight, or HANA's fight...THIS IS OUR FIGHT!

This is the fight of ALL the bettors who have supported this game for many years, and have received a slap in the face, instead of the respect they deserve.

They say that we are the customers...as if the racetrack is like a grocery store. What is it exactly that they think we are "buying"...if we are just customers? When the game has been mathematically engineered to insure defeat to at least 98% of the "customer base"...what do they think they are selling us?

Are they selling us entertainment? If they are under the impression that they are in the entertainment business, I suggest that they stand by the doors of their establishments, as the people are leaving after "the show" is over.

Do the customers appear entertained?

They are in the gambling business...pure and simple. And their product is already the most heavily taxed product out there...by far. As a result, the people are finding other games to play...and who can blame them?

But there are some customers, like us, who are still hanging on. We love this game, and have little interest in the other games being offered out there.

And we have waited patiently for common sense to eventually prevail among the leadership of this great game. A way which would put an end to the adversarial relationship between this "business" and its "customers".

And then they come up with a solution like this. Raise taxes, and make the customer shoulder the burden of curing this ailing sport.

The industry is spitting in our faces, and if we need HANA or Andymays to tell us this...then, we are about as smart as the industry thinks we are.

In this case you do probably do need HANA to lead whether you believe it or not. The reason is that both Jeff and rwwupl have been closely involved in the process that led to the bad bill in California.

Anyone can certainly do their own thing. I do my own thing all the time even though sometimes HANA doesn't really like it. I could care less if I know I'm right on any particular issue. You should do the same.

The issue of going into threads and spamming or wrecking them, especially a thread by someone who is working tirelessly to change things, is just a matter of right and wrong. Nobody cares if you start a thread about "California is dead to me". In the thread you can say whatever you want and people can agree or disagree. To go into any thread that mentions California and do it nonsensical to me. If you wanted to go to Del Mar and do it in their forum I might get it a little. Then the question becomes if it's good to put that up in one thread then why not another thread on any other subject? If you think that people who are looking in will get the message then why not? The answer is that people looking in will just go away if they are interested in a thread subject and not the filibustering that might go on inside it. Anyway that's my take.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by andymays

In this case you do probably do need HANA to lead whether you believe it or not. The reason is that both Jeff and rwwupl have been closely involved in the process that led to the bad bill in California.

Anyone can certainly do their own thing. I do my own thing all the time even though sometimes HANA doesn't really like it. I could care less if I know I'm right on any particular issue. You should do the same.

The issue of going into threads and spamming or wrecking them, especially a thread by someone who is working tirelessly to change things, is just a matter of right and wrong. Nobody cares if you start a thread about "California is dead to me". In the thread you can say whatever you want and people can agree or disagree. To go into any thread that mentions California and do it nonsensical to me. If you wanted to go to Del Mar and do it in their forum I might get it a little. Then the question becomes if it's good to put that up in one thread then why not another thread on any other subject? If you think that people who are looking in will get the message then why not? The answer is that people looking in will just go away if they are interested in a thread subject and not the filibustering that might go on inside it. Anyway that's my take.

You misunderstand me again Andy. My intention is not to spam or to wreck the threads.

I was just agreeing with Bruddah who stated that we are our own worst enemies, because we would rather bitch and complain among ourselves...instead of doing something constructive.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You misunderstand me again Andy. My intention is not to spam or to wreck the threads.

I was just agreeing with Bruddah who stated that we are our own worst enemies, because we would rather bitch and complain among ourselves...instead of doing something constructive.

I know that Jeff and rwwupl and myself are doing something constructive right now. If you believe it fine and if not fine. I don't have any official position with HANA although some board members might call me the official "pain in the ass". I might say the same about them.

To pull of something that works requires some organization. Even with the right organization it's still tough. Getting it wrong would be a disaster for everyone.

It's about convincing people who are on the fence that we are doing the right thing if and when something happens.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by andymays

To pull of something that works requires some organization. Even with the right organization it's still tough. Getting it wrong would be a disaster for everyone.

It's about convincing people who are on the fence that we are doing the right thing if and when something happens.

That's where we disagree Andy.

There is no convincing anybody of anything.

People can be reminded...but they can NEVER be convinced.

You may think that there are a lot of people "on the fence" on this issue...but I think you are wrong.

Very few people are on the fence, IMO.

The vast majority of the horseplayers are uninterested in the takeout issue...and this has been proven repeatedly in the past. Nothing you can say to them, can change their mind.

And then there are the "serious" fans, who are aware of the evils of the high takeout. Luckily, even if their number is small, they represent a decent % of the betting pools...and this may give them some bargaining power.

And they don't need to be convinced...they just need to be reminded.

It is this group that might be able to make a difference in this takeout issue, IMO...assuming that they take the necessary action, in a timely manner.

Otherwise...all is lost.

I am not disrespecting any of the fine people who are working feverishly behind the scenes...mind you.

But being active in this game for 30 a long time...I agree with Bruddah.

We tend to be all talk, and no action...and, therefore...we become our own worst enemies.

Oganization is good...but taking action is even better.

Nothing personal...but I am an interested party here too. I have been supporting this game, in a big way, for 30 years...and I too should be allowed to vent my frustration, without being accused of spamming or wrecking threads.

[andymays]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

That's where we disagree Andy.

There is no convincing anybody of anything.

People can be reminded...but they can NEVER be convinced.

You may think that there are a lot of people "on the fence" on this issue...but I think you are wrong.

Very few people are on the fence, IMO.

The vast majority of the horseplayers are uninterested in the takeout issue...and this has been proven repeatedly in the past. Nothing you can say to them, can change their mind.

And then there are the "serious" fans, who are aware of the evils of the high takeout. Luckily, even if their number is small, they represent a decent % of the betting pools...and this may give them some bargaining power.

It is this group that might be able to make a difference in this takeout issue, IMO...assuming that they take the necessary action, in a timely manner.

Otherwise...all is lost.

I am not disrespecting any of the fine people who are working feverishly behind the scenes...mind you.

But being active in this game for 30 a long time...I agree with Bruddah.

We tend to be all talk, and no action...and, therefore...we become our own worst enemies.

Oganization is good...but taking action is even better.

Nothing personal...but I am an interested party here too. I have been supporting this game, in a big way, for 30 years...and I too should be allowed to vent my frustration, without being accused of spamming or wrecking threads.

It is about convincing people because the other side will try to confuse the issue in order to get their way. You have to make a clear and convincing case that people should stand with you. The more people that stand with you the more likely things will change.

What's your plan? Lay it out. Maybe I'll follow you if I like your plan.

What actions would you take?

Also, have you been in on any of the meetings held in California or listened to them? Have you spoken with any of the Racing Executives or Racing Officials or members of the CTT or the TOC that are involved?

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by andymays

What's your plan? Lay it out. Maybe I'll follow you if I like your plan.

What actions would you take?

Also, have you been in on any of the meetings held in California or listened to them? Have you spoken with any of the Racing Executives or Racing Officials or members of the CTT or the TOC that are involved?

And what have all the meetings that YOU have been to, done for the player?

Lay THAT out!

[andymays]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

And what have all the meetings that YOU have been to, done for the player?

Lay THAT out!

I lay it out every day. You can feel free to go back to all my threads and posts over the last two years. There are several people here that can back me up on that.

I'm not busting your balls on this. I seriously want to know what you know and if you know a better way to get stuff done then lay it out. I am serious when I say I will follow you or your suggestions if I like them.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

You misunderstand me again Andy. My intention is not to spam or to wreck the threads.

I was just agreeing with Bruddah who stated that we are our own worst enemies, because we would rather bitch and complain among ourselves...instead of doing something constructive.

Having numerous people post the same reply - "California racing is dead to me" - to every "non-negative" California racing thread is spam, plain and simple.

And the ONLY thing you can do that will have ANY affect at all is to withhold your wagering dollars. That's it. That's the only message that will have any impact whatsoever.

So you need to organize and you need to organize in a large way. HANA is the perfect vehicle for this and one has to wonder if they (HANA) are up to the task of seizing this opportunity and making an example out of California and their proposed takeout hike.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage

Having numerous people post the same reply - "California racing is dead to me" - to every "non-negative" California racing thread is spam, plain and simple.

And the ONLY thing you can do that will have ANY affect at all is to withhold your wagering dollars. That's it. That's the only message that will have any impact whatsoever.

So you need to organize and you need to organize in a large way. HANA is the perfect vehicle for this and one has to wonder if they (HANA) are up to the task of seizing this opportunity and making an example out of California and their proposed takeout hike.

PA...I did not post a "California racing is dead to me" reply, when I was accused of spamming and wrecking threads. What does my post in this thread (#36) have to do with the protest slogan started by Rook?

This thread is about the California takeout issue, and I just voiced my opinion on why I feel the increased takeout is an injustice against the player.

Read my post, and explain to me how I "hijacked" the thread and then "wrecked" it with my spam.