Why Learn Basic Programming Skills?

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

It is true that python is simple in the sense that it allows a complete beginner to start writing simple programs very quickly but in reality it has a significant learning curve if you want to reach expert levels and write idiomatic code using concepts like meta-classes, decorators, coroutines, context managers etc.

I agree. The problem is that once (many of) the newbies learn a few tricks in a ducktyping environment, they tend to abandon programming completely when they learn it actually requires more than a little effort (to get past the "writing simple programs" stage). Monash University did an interesting study on the underlying causes of (what was and to a great extent still is considered) the failure of many computer science curriculums.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by traynor

I agree. The problem is that once (many of) the newbies learn a few tricks in a ducktyping environment, they tend to abandon programming completely when they learn it actually requires more than a little effort (to get past the "writing simple programs" stage). Monash University did an interesting study on the underlying causes of (what was and to a great extent still is considered) the failure of many computer science curriculums.

This behavior is also common even among professional python programmers who once reach a level where they can get the job "done" they stop to evolve (until they loose their jobs).

[Actor]

Originally Posted by traynor

Depends on what you paid for it. Buying software as a product, one tends to expect it to perform as claimed. Caveat emptor.

So much software is free. The BASIC code in #184 is an example. I seldom pay for anything other than antivirus and Turbo Tax. Software that you pay for never comes with source code so tweaking it is impossible.

[ebcorde]

In a Banking app. Programming sucks today. too much BS, encapsulation, large programs with thousands of classes, objects, design Patterns, Managed Code, Takes too long to walk on a Project.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

This behavior is also common even among professional python programmers who once reach a level where they can get the job "done" they stop to evolve (until they loose their jobs).

Not just python programmers. That is why the litany of, "Oh, this is such a hopeless mess that it is impossible to use. We'll have to start over and do it right this time" has been--and still is--so prevalent. And why business analysts--acting as intermediaries between the upper-level executives and the programming staff--have such pleasant, interesting, and well-rewarded jobs.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by Actor

So much software is free. The BASIC code in #184 is an example. I seldom pay for anything other than antivirus and Turbo Tax. Software that you pay for never comes with source code so tweaking it is impossible.

I have a weird perspective. I think the reason most software is free is that it isn't good enough to sell--and the (real) motives of the developer(s) is/are highly suspect.

I MUCH prefer a "community edition" (free) of a commercial-grade software. A good example is RStudio. Their intent is to show how great their app is, how much it can do, and how it is well worth whatever they charge. (I think I saw a commercial tag of $10K/yr lease for RStudio). If whatever software does something useful (to me), I will duplicate it on my own. I don't need their code--I can write my own. Or I will lease/buy the "real" software and use the time I save to go bowhunting in British Columbia with Katherine Jung.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by ebcorde

In a Banking app. Programming sucks today. too much BS, encapsulation, large programs with thousands of classes, objects, design Patterns, Managed Code, Takes too long to walk on a Project.

It is essential (for their survival) that programmers/developers convince those who fund their (often foolish, bloated, and largely unessential) activities that the latest, greatest, gee-whiz, state-of-the-art, up-to-date "conceptual paradigm" is absolutely essential to the continued functioning (and well-being) of the organization.

Pretty much the same party line parroted by engineering, design, sales, marketing, and (occasionally, but not too often) accounting. Just normal business.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Check what is happening in line 3400 and after..

By the way, this "code" is the perfect example why to avoid basic and you should not try to learn anything from it as it represents an extremely poor approach.

That code is 200 years old.

Visual Basic and VBA (as used within Office) is nothing like that. I'm sure you know this.

I'm lazy to learn the new stuff, and I've been able to accomplish everything I've ever needed to do using VBA. The elegance comes largely from the programmer.


Everyone in finance seems to be in love with Python, so I'll assume there's something to it.

[Actor]

Statement 80 is dead code.

[NorCalGreg]

Hello all:

I had to chime in here--I truly think the absolute BEST thing a serious handicapper could do for himself is to learn programming.

Over a year ago...I decided to see about putting my handicapping methods onto software. Not commercially--that came later. Handicapping on a computer screen--bouncing back and forth--scrolling up and down looking at online past performances became more than a slight irritation. Printing them was out of the question after burning through 3 printers along with the costs of ink, etc.

So...I got the idea of putting my own methods onto software. Not to pick winners for me--but to alert me to the "situations" all handicappers look for. For me it's certain trainer moves, running lines, pace anomalies. If I could, instead of scanning and going blind reading from a computer screen--if I could have this "screening" automated, life would be easier and my handicapping would certainly improve.

I let it be known I was looking for a programmer to take my methods to software. I was completely naive--so naive, in fact--I didn't realize most of my "methods" were more nuance than hard and fast, set methods.

Well...I was soon to realize a programmer cannot program "nuances". They need explicit directions, rules, instructions on what exactly I want. That was the hardest part--just being able to clearly express what it was I wanted.

The gentleman I found for this task..is an engineer by trade, and on the side dabbled in programming. I believe the language he uses is POWER BASIC for windows.

We've now put the finishing touches and completed beta-testing our third software program. I still don't know a lick about programming--you've probably heard the joke about the guy who got a D- in C++. That's me.

Along the way I did learn enough about HTML ( how and where to insert little snippets of code) and graphics to assemble a presentable website.

If I had to hire a certified professional programmer...the total cost of this latest software program--would probably secure a beginning retainer only. I really got lucky with the gentleman I did find (through this message board, BTW)

It really, really is vital for a young man or woman to learn to programming skills. I've become a much better handicapper--not because this software picks winners for me--it doesn't.

Software doesn't forget, doesn't get sleepy, isn't too lazy to check something...everything I know (almost) is condensed and always ready. I don't scan past performances--looking for my spot plays. That task is done for me.
It's still up to me to handicap my plays, wager properly, keep records.....and most of all THINK.

I've learned so much in this venture---I can just imagine if I had programming skills -how much an even BETTER handicapper I would be.

Take my advice...learn basic programming. It's a vital skill necessary to compete in today's world...absolutely vital in the competitive wars of horse racing.

Best of luck,

NorCalGreg

[traynor]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

That code is 200 years old.

Visual Basic and VBA (as used within Office) is nothing like that. I'm sure you know this.

I'm lazy to learn the new stuff, and I've been able to accomplish everything I've ever needed to do using VBA. The elegance comes largely from the programmer.


Everyone in finance seems to be in love with Python, so I'll assume there's something to it.

Only at first glance. If you dig a bit into what the quants are doing, especially in Europe, especially in the "cutting edge" of development, a different picture emerges. There is a LOT of support for (and use of) F#. That mirrors a growing trend in both Microsoft/non-Microsoft toward F#.

An example:
https://qconnewyork.com/ny2016/ny201...e-awakens.html

The usefulness (and value) of F# should be readily apparent to anyone who looks at it without blinders. Whether it is better (for your specific purposes) than VB is something only you can decide. Building F# code blocks to splice into VB is relatively simple. They play nicely together.

Lots of people use Python. Lots of people use VB. However, some very smart people in some very complex fields are quietly transitioning to development with F# and that other 800 pound gorilla--erlang.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by NorCalGreg

Hello all:

I had to chime in here--I truly think the absolute BEST thing a serious handicapper could do for himself is to learn programming.

Over a year ago...I decided to see about putting my handicapping methods onto software. Not commercially--that came later. Handicapping on a computer screen--bouncing back and forth--scrolling up and down looking at online past performances became more than a slight irritation. Printing them was out of the question after burning through 3 printers along with the costs of ink, etc.

So...I got the idea of putting my own methods onto software. Not to pick winners for me--but to alert me to the "situations" all handicappers look for. For me it's certain trainer moves, running lines, pace anomalies. If I could, instead of scanning and going blind reading from a computer screen--if I could have this "screening" automated, life would be easier and my handicapping would certainly improve.

I let it be known I was looking for a programmer to take my methods to software. I was completely naive--so naive, in fact--I didn't realize most of my "methods" were more nuance than hard and fast, set methods.

Well...I was soon to realize a programmer cannot program "nuances". They need explicit directions, rules, instructions on what exactly I want. That was the hardest part--just being able to clearly express what it was I wanted.

The gentleman I found for this task..is an engineer by trade, and on the side dabbled in programming. I believe the language he uses is POWER BASIC for windows.

We've now put the finishing touches and completed beta-testing our third software program. I still don't know a lick about programming--you've probably heard the joke about the guy who got a D- in C++. That's me.

Along the way I did learn enough about HTML ( how and where to insert little snippets of code) and graphics to assemble a presentable website.

If I had to hire a certified professional programmer...the total cost of this latest software program--would probably secure a beginning retainer only. I really got lucky with the gentleman I did find (through this message board, BTW)

It really, really is vital for a young man or woman to learn to programming skills. I've become a much better handicapper--not because this software picks winners for me--it doesn't.

Software doesn't forget, doesn't get sleepy, isn't too lazy to check something...everything I know (almost) is condensed and always ready. I don't scan past performances--looking for my spot plays. That task is done for me.
It's still up to me to handicap my plays, wager properly, keep records.....and most of all THINK.

I've learned so much in this venture---I can just imagine if I had programming skills -how much an even BETTER handicapper I would be.

Take my advice...learn basic programming. It's a vital skill necessary to compete in today's world...absolutely vital in the competitive wars of horse racing.

Best of luck,

NorCalGreg

That is one of the most useful fringe benefits of learning basic programming skills--it forces one to explicitly define what one is doing, and wants to do. Sometimes even why one is doing it (which can be even more useful).

If you (or your developer) hit a snag, let me know. As I have mentioned on other threads, I have a LOT of code blocks that have been developed (and used) over the years and almost all are directly related to horse racing. I might be able to smooth out (or expedite) some (otherwise) difficult areas. Power Basic and Visual Basic (in which most of the code blocks were written) are very similar, and duplicating what one does in the other is fairly simple.

[DeltaLover]

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey

That code is 200 years old.

Visual Basic and VBA (as used within Office) is nothing like that. I'm sure you know this.

I'm lazy to learn the new stuff, and I've been able to accomplish everything I've ever needed to do using VBA. The elegance comes largely from the programmer.


Everyone in finance seems to be in love with Python, so I'll assume there's something to it.

Of course modern BASIC has evolved and adopted several features from other programming paradigms but its origins are still influential and in many cases affect negatively its expressibility especially when it comes to concepts like generic, function or dynamic programming.

As far as python, it is a dynamic language representing a different programming paradigm compared to statically linked languages like VB or C++, something that makes it attractive for high level programming like web site building or scientific applications while it still can be extended by custom C modules in cases where high performance is a priority.

[traynor]

Originally Posted by DeltaLover

Of course modern BASIC has evolved and adopted several features from other programming paradigms but its origins are still influential and in many cases affect negatively its expressibility especially when it comes to concepts like generic, function or dynamic programming.

As far as python, it is a dynamic language representing a different programming paradigm compared to statically linked languages like VB or C++, something that makes it attractive for high level programming like web site building or scientific applications while it still can be extended by custom C modules in cases where high performance is a priority.

I think for most people's use, to do what most people (non-professional programmers) want or need to do (especially if it involves horses), either VB or Python is perfectly fine. So are a number of other alternatives. They all can get done what needs to be done fairly easily, without painful and arduous learning involved. The choice comes down to personal preference.

Beyond the beginning stages, the next step is not more complex languages or conceptual paradigms, but learning to use the stuff that others have already developed. Easy-to-use, simple-to-learn stats apps like Orange, DataMiner, WEKA, and Anaconda3 make data mining and data analysis simple and readily available to anyone willing to spend a few hours learning to take advantage of what is already out there and freely available.

Then (and only then) does one need to start considering such things as programming paradigms and other such advanced concepts. Most could happily code away for years (or their entire lives) without even considering such things of interest, much less of value.

I think most people who want or need a custom website built would do far better to spend a bit of time learning to use DreamWeaver (or some similar app) than worrying about hand coding the whole thing from scratch. The same thing applies to other areas of software development, of whatever level of difficulty, sophistication, or complexity. Re-inventing the wheel is primarily useful for those in the wheel-making business.

[traynor]

A clarification to NorCalGreg: I was offering assistance, not soliciting employment or offering anything for sale. As in "freely given." If you have problems, don't hesitate asking for assistance, suggestions, or information while (needlessly) searching for ulterior motives. There are none.

I think the best thing that can happen to horse racing is more winners for more bettors. If I can contribute something toward that goal, good for me. Good for everyone else, too. That is the long and the short of it.