Lower Takeout Feedback

[DeanT]

Hi Everyone,

I am heading to the Gaming Summit in Montreal at the end of the month. I am on a panel about wagering and takeouts. This summit will have people from all walks of racing from all over North America, including track execs. The Summit this year is focused on the player and why he has left racing for other games and what we can do to get them back playing.

One area of discussion is takeouts and what lower prices can do for everyone. I wrote a motion for players to lower takeouts in my country, which one would hope could snowball across racing in North America, if successful. I hate to sound like a downer, but I am not overly confident racing will change; but since the conference will be hearing from players, it is a chance to be heard.

Here is my motion.

http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/20...ack-to-us.html

If you could reply here (on this thread) with any thoughts, and maybe your first name and residence (if possible), the head of the conference wants to print out all responses, as well as the motion.

Some like Ian, DanG and Jeff P have already responded and my sincere thanks. Some comments would be especially good, for example, if you have an angle that is clicking through at 0.95 ROI that is a red light bet where you bet zero dollars, what a 7% takeout cut could do for you. Or if you ahve played offshore and gotten a rebate, what that has done to your volume.

Anyway, thanks in advance, and to all who choose to respond let's hope we can do some good.

Best,

Dean

[1st time lasix]

Very best of luck to you and I applaud your efforts. I ONLY play venues with lower exotic takeouts. I refuse to play any track pool when the take approaches 21% or more. Last year i never had played Ellis park until they dropped the take on the late PicK Four to 4%. They got my attention and my dollars. I played the races individually as well so it attracted me to their product.

[DeanT]

I did the same thing 1sttime. I had never bet ELP ever before. I am not sure I have even seen a race there. Looking forward to see what they come up with this year as a special bet. Apparently they have something up their sleeve.

Thanks for the response and gl at the windows.

[SMOO]

You will get more repeat customers with a lowered takeout, it's a mathematical fact.

[dvlander]

Not to go off-topic but lower takeout certainly will result in higher track handle just as lower income tax rates means more tax revenue for the government (i.e., increased economic activity). Track management doesn't get it just like most government officials don't get it.

Dale

[Imriledup]

Originally Posted by DeanT

Hi Everyone,

I am heading to the Gaming Summit in Montreal at the end of the month. I am on a panel about wagering and takeouts. This summit will have people from all walks of racing from all over North America, including track execs. The Summit this year is focused on the player and why he has left racing for other games and what we can do to get them back playing.

One area of discussion is takeouts and what lower prices can do for everyone. I wrote a motion for players to lower takeouts in my country, which one would hope could snowball across racing in North America, if successful. I hate to sound like a downer, but I am not overly confident racing will change; but since the conference will be hearing from players, it is a chance to be heard.

Here is my motion.

http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/20...ack-to-us.html

If you could reply here (on this thread) with any thoughts, and maybe your first name and residence (if possible), the head of the conference wants to print out all responses, as well as the motion.

Some like Ian, DanG and Jeff P have already responded and my sincere thanks. Some comments would be especially good, for example, if you have an angle that is clicking through at 0.95 ROI that is a red light bet where you bet zero dollars, what a 7% takeout cut could do for you. Or if you ahve played offshore and gotten a rebate, what that has done to your volume.

Anyway, thanks in advance, and to all who choose to respond let's hope we can do some good.

Best,

Dean

If you play offshore and get a rebate, you don't want takeout lowered at all, because your rebate gets lowered. The lower takeout only helps people who aren't getting a rebate.

[SeattleSlew@BP]

Originally Posted by Imriledup

If you play offshore and get a rebate, you don't want takeout lowered at all, because your rebate gets lowered. The lower takeout only helps people who aren't getting a rebate.

That's a myth. I play thru parimutuel rebate shops AND offshore, and would much rather have an across the board lowering of takeout. I get the same or better rate while the betting market allows the bad players to stick around longer and wager.

The main thing DanT needs to emphasize is that it's not an overnight thing. Laurel tried it for a three week meet and were "disappointed", but it takes longer than that for the takeout reduction to make a significant difference to the average bettor's bankroll.

[DeanT]

Originally Posted by SeattleSlew@BP

That's a myth. I play thru parimutuel rebate shops AND offshore, and would much rather have an across the board lowering of takeout. I get the same or better rate while the betting market allows the bad players to stick around longer and wager.

The main thing DanT needs to emphasize is that it's not an overnight thing. Laurel tried it for a three week meet and were "disappointed", but it takes longer than that for the takeout reduction to make a significant difference to the average bettor's bankroll.

I agree. I would like to see something like this done for 2 years I think.

It took us about 50 years to screw up the business, it is not going to get fixed in a week, imo.

Thanks for the response. We are getting up there now with players making some great points. I think I have 25 or so responses so far, which is nice. It is appreciated.

[rrbauer]

Laurel tried it for TEN RACING DAYS.....BFD!

[facorsig]

Racing is wildly popular here across the country in the absence of both parimutuel wagering and the resultant takeout. A possible conclusion is that there is no link between takeout and the popularity of racing. Race tracks fail to provide an environment which is attractive to the general community, fail to cater to the interests of the wagering public and do a poor job to reward those few how push the most money through the windows.

The 7% tax which was rescinded should have resulted in removal of some service from the government which WO is now providing from these same funds. Likely, the government was not providing any service to the race tracks and the original tax was more of a problem. Restoring the tax would not provide any benefit to racing.

Personally, I do not consider take-out in my wagering decisions. I do consider rebates. Last year's move by WO to remove Premier Turf Club as a result of a single $1 wager by someone related to the track using the $1 provided by Premier was offensive and indicative of the attitude of WO management. There is an ethics element here which WO management will not understand and therefore I am not likely to wager on their track for the foreseeable future.

Fred

[Cangamble]

Originally Posted by facorsig

Racing is wildly popular here across the country in the absence of both parimutuel wagering and the resultant takeout. A possible conclusion is that there is no link between takeout and the popularity of racing. Race tracks fail to provide an environment which is attractive to the general community, fail to cater to the interests of the wagering public and do a poor job to reward those few how push the most money through the windows.

The 7% tax which was rescinded should have resulted in removal of some service from the government which WO is now providing from these same funds. Likely, the government was not providing any service to the race tracks and the original tax was more of a problem. Restoring the tax would not provide any benefit to racing.

Personally, I do not consider take-out in my wagering decisions. I do consider rebates. Last year's move by WO to remove Premier Turf Club as a result of a single $1 wager by someone related to the track using the $1 provided by Premier was offensive and indicative of the attitude of WO management. There is an ethics element here which WO management will not understand and therefore I am not likely to wager on their track for the foreseeable future.

Fred

Dubai racing is bet pretty heavily on Betfair for example. But the purses are big and it is more of an oddity in the middle east which explains the popularity there. And I'm sure many of the Sheiks there probably bet a few wives on their nags as well

Ever since parimutuel wagering began in Canada, the government got a good chunk of the money bet. They didn't perform very many services for the cut. When slots came along, it was negotiated to drop most of the taxes as the government was now to get 80% of slot profits. The only part of the 7% that came back to the horseplayer is perhaps HPI's rewards which most likely amount to 1% of the money bet at HPI. Many HPI account holders aren't eligible for rewards because they are out of their home market area (like me), so I'm guess at the 1%. The rest of that windfall went to the tracks, and if I'm not mistaken, track takeout has slightly increased since 1995 in Ontario.

WEG management's idea of competing for customers is to eliminate WEG's competition.

This is just another reason why they are worthy of zero respect.

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by Cangamble

I'm sure many of the Sheiks there probably bet a few wives on their nags as well

[Imriledup]

Originally Posted by SeattleSlew@BP

That's a myth. I play thru parimutuel rebate shops AND offshore, and would much rather have an across the board lowering of takeout. I get the same or better rate while the betting market allows the bad players to stick around longer and wager.

The main thing DanT needs to emphasize is that it's not an overnight thing. Laurel tried it for a three week meet and were "disappointed", but it takes longer than that for the takeout reduction to make a significant difference to the average bettor's bankroll.

So you are saying that if your favorite track slashed their takeout, your rebate would stay the same? I don't think that's right.

[SeattleSlew@BP]

Originally Posted by Imriledup

So you are saying that if your favorite track slashed their takeout, your rebate would stay the same? I don't think that's right.

No, I'm saying the takeout reduction would make up for the drop in rebate. I can either be getting rebated in sharper pools vs. syndicates and other serious players who get rebates, or betting at the same rate (via lower takeout) into "dumber" pools. It's obviously not as simple as flipping a switch, it would take time to build, I'm simply stating why there is a long term advantage for reduced takeout for everybody, even rebate players.

[Cangamble]

Originally Posted by SeattleSlew@BP

No, I'm saying the takeout reduction would make up for the drop in rebate. I can either be getting rebated in sharper pools vs. syndicates and other serious players who get rebates, or betting at the same rate (via lower takeout) into "dumber" pools. It's obviously not as simple as flipping a switch, it would take time to build, I'm simply stating why there is a long term advantage for reduced takeout for everybody, even rebate players.

I definitely would rather have reduced takeouts for everyone that are at least the size of my average rebate.
Dumb money is lacking in the pools as it is. I'd rather see more of it than less.