TOC Responds To My Email About Premier Turf Club

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

2. "Move" to a state where some degree of intelligence prevails.

This is where the hard work starts. They all have some kind of screwed up rules......if you find a state that is friendly to online play.....and makes sense in a few other areas.........you find out they want $2500 bucks a year to register your 10 year old car.............

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

Yeah, this whole terrorist connection is bad for the industry. Frank Angst from the Thoroughbred Times called this morning to ask me about it for his story. I think the article is coming out today.

Here it is:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/nat...-Caliente.aspx

New York

report questions Grupo Caliente
by Frank Angst

A New York report questions Thoroughbred racing’s dealings with Grupo Caliente, a simulcasting service based in Tijuana, Mexico, owned by that city’s controversial mayor, Jorge Hank Rhon.

… reveals all of the North American-based applicants have some dealings with Grupo Caliente. The report says United States and Mexican law enforcement authorities have suspected Rhon of money laundering and drug trafficking.

… “To the extent that Grupo Caliente may be involved in money laundering, it could easily exploit its status as a licensed bookmaker to launder illicit proceeds through U.S. tracks’ pari-mutuel wagering pools,” the report says. “It is a relatively simple matter for a licensed out-of-country bookmaker to partner with an offshore rebate shop with access to pari-mutuel pools in the United States.”

… The New York Racing Association, … , sells its signal to Grupo Caliente’s Hipodromo de Agua Caliente for a flat monthly charge of $4,125. … Grupo Caliente’s bookmaking customers do not enter NYRA’s pari-mutuel pool because the outlet is authorized to use the signal only for bookmaking operations.

… Churchill said it conducted a limited due diligence review of Grupo Caliente and, as a result, does business with the entity.

… William Johnston Jr., whose Johnston family is one of the key members of Excelsior’s bid, allow Grupo Caliente simulcast signals …

… The Nevada Gaming Control Board, one of the country’s preeminent gaming regulators, has cited Grupo Caliente in three different public hearings relative to licensing suitability. Essentially, companies were directed to end business with Grupo Caliente.

It occurred to me when I originally read the report that they didn't attempt to quantify how much money could be expected to be laundered in this way and compare it with how much traffickers are expected to try to launder in other specific ways.

[trying2win]

A few things I'm wondering about after clicking the Thoroughbred Times link and reading the article:

1.Is Grupo Caliente the type of outfit that Drew Couto of TOC was railing about, because it says Magna Entertainment has dealings with this outfit?

2. Does that mean Magna Entertainment sells it signal to Grupo Caliente and has a similar deal like the NYRA has with this outfit? ......hmmm... The article wasn't specific in some areas. I'm just curious.

T2W

[trying2win]

I noticed that LINK2BET was still offering wagering on the NORTHERN CALIFORNIA FAIR races on Fri. July 13/07. What happened to Drew Couto's tough talk about LINK2BET taking bets on these races? Again.......hmmm.

T2W

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by BillW

I'm not familiar with this guy. Is he just a political appointee? He seems to be parroting things he has heard but doesn't really understand how they relate.

My take on the guy is that he's desperately trying to cover up things he understands entirely too well ... and from first-person involvement. He's on my short list for "most likely to be ambushed by 20-20."

[BillW]

Originally Posted by Kelso

My take on the guy is that he's desperately trying to cover up things he understands entirely too well ... and from first-person involvement. He's on my short list for "most likely to be ambushed by 20-20."

I didn't want to jump to any conclusions . Thanks for the input.

[Kelso]

Originally Posted by BillW

I didn't want to jump to any conclusions .

This is what I do.

[Premier Turf Club]

Originally Posted by LaughAndBeMerry

Do you think it would help if you gave an interview to any industry magazines on obstacles you have found?

We are asked to tell our story at least once a week.

[Premier Turf Club]

Originally Posted by Kelso

My take on the guy is that he's desperately trying to cover up things he understands entirely too well ... and from first-person involvement. He's on my short list for "most likely to be ambushed by 20-20."

You're instincts are right on. Someone phoned me just yesterday with an interesting tale about Mr. Couto, a former TOC commrade of his now working elsewhere in the industry, a 3rd gentleman, a consultant we'll call JG, and a little island somewhere in the Caribbean.

[yak merchant]

Originally Posted by Kelso

My take on the guy is that he's desperately trying to cover up things he understands entirely too well ... and from first-person involvement. He's on my short list for "most likely to be ambushed by 20-20."

I don't know I'm going with him being a r-tard. Find the transcript where he was arguing against a professional gambler at the symposium. I believe it was 2003 and it was against Ron Nichol (Playing in the Pool?). He makes a quote in there that is absolutely the most asinine thing I've ever read.

[trying2win]

Since there has been some discussion again recently at PACE ADVANTAGE re California thoroughbred racing, plus ADW availability to California residents, TOC involvement etc. I thought I'd repost this thread again, since there have been new developments on PLAYERS ASSOCIATIONS, recent talk of internet gambling reforms etc.

If there were some PLAYER ASSOCIATION war room meetings lately. Sorry I missed them. Was there any discussion on the California racing scene, for example? .

I'm not a big fan of betting artificial dirt surface tracks, but confess I have bet some Hollywood Park races this meet. However, since I can't bet that track through PTC, due mainly I suspect to the arrogance of some the executives at the TOC, I've bet Hollywood Park offshore at PINNACLE SPORTS. I wonder how that is benefitting California tracks and horsemen, Mr. Couto? I also suspect many California horsemen disagree with the views of "Quick Drew' Couto, but have had their views silenced in many ways by the TOC.

By the way, I still don't buy 'Quick Drew's' theory that ADW'S offering bettors rebates doesn't increase a racetrack's handle.

I think a good step would be for Player Association/PACE ADVANTAGE members to send Mr. Couto an email telling them they will be betting California tracks at offshore racebooks. Let's speak with our wallets. If there is enough commitment from PACE ADVANTAGE members, plus California horsemen reading these posts to put pressure on the TOC executives to change things to allow Caliornia thoroughbred track signals for PTC, that Mr. Couto will have a paradigm shift and welcome PTC to take bets on their California tracks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------






~"Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing, because he could only do a little".

-- Edmund Burke

[chickenhead]

email (a masterwork of logic and erudition) sent.

[chickenhead]

Originally Posted by Premier Turf Club

Drew has happily given his approval to IRG, RGS and Elite and some others so we KNOW that isn't the issue.

I hope you are correct about this, as this played a central role in part of my gambit regarding the effect of parimutuel based rebating on the average customer..

.....If rebates at any level are allowed, the only logical stance is that rebates at every level must be allowed and encouraged, in an effort to reduce the very inequity you claim to want to guard against.

A ubiquitous rebate available to everyone would be a lowered takeout, certainly that is not unfair. It is only to the degree that rebates are rare, and inaccessible, that they are unfair. Yet the TOC stance is to make them precisely rare and inaccessible, to all but the wealthiest customers.

It is the TOC stance itself that is unfair....

[trying2win]

Here is a copy of a paragraph from the opening post in this thread. In it, Drew Couto, the executive director of TOC, explains his 'reasons' for being against rebates:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"From what we have seen, there is an abundance of evidence demonstrating that "rebates" do not increase overall handle, but rather simply enable those players with access to such rebates to enjoy a competitive advantage not afforded ordinary players. The net effect is to substantially increase the effective takeout rate for all other players, artificially reducing payouts, and reducing the overall amount of churn through the systematic siphoning of so-called "profits" from the pools. Despite what some say, this is not founded on a "winners not welcomed" philosophy, but upon earnest recognition of the fact that rebates simply create a competitive advantage for some, with little or no benefit to the pool, handle, or associated revenues".

__________________________________________________ ______________

Sorry Drew...you may have had the intention to make your views against ADWS giving rebates to appear as 'GOOD SOUND REASONS'. In my view, they are just 'REASONS THAT SOUND GOOD'. It seems there are some hidden agendas. Why would a horsemen's association want to turn down substantial more revenue from derived from customers' bets at a legitimate ADW like PTC, by employing all these roadblocks and smoke screens to block access by PTC to the signals from California thoroughbred tracks? I have my theories and they are a lot different than 'Quick Drew' Cuoto's alleged 'reasons'. They involve things like special interest groups, lobbying, and market share of the lucrative California horse racing market. Time will tell if my intuition is right about certain theories.

If we believe Mr. Couto's 'reason' that giving rebates to a small group of customers gives them an unfair advantage....then, along that line of
reasoning, then certain handicappers without a rebate ADW, but have developed expert handicapping and/or wagering skills gained through study and hard work, also have an unfair advantage over the 'average Joe' at the track according to Drew Cuoto's logic. And how about some handicappers who have top-of-the line handicapping software and have 'paid the price' with a lot of hard work in using the tools of the software to gain an edge...will Drew Cuoto complain that that gives them an unfair advantage too over the average fan at the track?. Would Mr. Cuoto want all three of these 'unfair advantage' group of handcappers banned from betting on California thoroughbred races then?

Read some of Drew Cuoto's comments in the initial post of this thread again, and see if you can deduce what his real reasons are from keeping PTC from gaining the signal from California thoroughbred tracks. I'd be interested in your comments.

Thanks,

T2W

[trying2win]

I found this interesting article online from the year 2004. It was about a conflict involving rebates and the TOC:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/nat...XpressBet.aspx



T2W