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05-09-2015, 06:17 AM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 3,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillriledup
When i hear the word "rip" i think of Cubs manager Lee Elia and his famous rant (you can hear it on youtube if you've never heard it before) and he uses "rip them bleepedy bleeps".
As far as Beyer getting "ripped" i never realized Andy had a lot of detractors, what's not to love?
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For someone who posts constantly, you must not actually read what anyone else writes before getting your comments out there. We've had plenty of Beyer detractors, many of whom clearly didn't understand the first thing about how Beyer figures are even made.
Beyer is a pioneer and a very entertaining writer. His legacy is secure, but that all breeds jealousy, so you'll always have people who try to tear someone like that down.
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05-09-2015, 08:19 AM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MI
Posts: 6,330
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Let's face it. Beyer numbers are the standard which all other numbers are judged by.
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05-09-2015, 11:43 AM
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capper Al
Let's face it. Beyer numbers are the standard which all other numbers are judged by.
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There are better numbers out there, so, you can't call the Beyer figures the "standard". Beyer the man casts a much bigger shadow than just the numbers bearing his name.
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05-09-2015, 12:50 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Denver
Posts: 4,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
There are better numbers out there, so, you can't call the Beyer figures the "standard". Beyer the man casts a much bigger shadow than just the numbers bearing his name.
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I've always subscribed to the theory that how a horse gets his final time is just as critical as the final time. Whatever you think of Beyer or his numbers, he should certainly be in everyone's list of top five handicapping writers.
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05-09-2015, 01:25 PM
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
I've always subscribed to the theory that how a horse gets his final time is just as critical as the final time. Whatever you think of Beyer or his numbers, he should certainly be in everyone's list of top five handicapping writers.
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Frankly...I put Beyer right at the top of the handicapping writers list.
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05-09-2015, 01:36 PM
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#21
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@TimeformUSfigs
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Frankly...I put Beyer right at the top of the handicapping writers list.
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Me too, and a Secretariat like Belmont gap back to second.
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05-09-2015, 01:45 PM
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
Me too, and a Secretariat like Belmont gap back to second.
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Find me another handicapping writer with the integrity to admit that he regularly loses money at Gulfstream and Saratoga. The way the other handicapping writers write...you would think that the racetrack is their personal ATM.
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Last edited by thaskalos; 05-09-2015 at 01:48 PM.
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05-09-2015, 04:28 PM
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#23
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway01
For someone who posts constantly, you must not actually read what anyone else writes before getting your comments out there. We've had plenty of Beyer detractors, many of whom clearly didn't understand the first thing about how Beyer figures are even made.
Beyer is a pioneer and a very entertaining writer. His legacy is secure, but that all breeds jealousy, so you'll always have people who try to tear someone like that down.
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I admit, i didn't realize there were any detractors of Andy Beyer. I know people might think that the Beyer figs are something they don't use or don't believe in, but for Andy himself, i didn't realize he had a lot of haters or any haters for that matter.
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05-09-2015, 05:10 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Denver
Posts: 4,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Frankly...I put Beyer right at the top of the handicapping writers list.
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I'd put Tom Ainslie on top, not necessarily because he wrote the best book but because he paved the path for the other writers. He was the first one to show there was a market for a well written, intelligent handicapping book. Even Andy Beyer said, all handicapping books can be divided into two categories. Before and after Tom Ainslie. I'd also put Mark Cramer on my list.
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05-09-2015, 05:40 PM
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
I'd put Tom Ainslie on top, not necessarily because he wrote the best book but because he paved the path for the other writers. He was the first one to show there was a market for a well written, intelligent handicapping book. Even Andy Beyer said, all handicapping books can be divided into two categories. Before and after Tom Ainslie. I'd also put Mark Cramer on my list.
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Ainslie definitely deserves the credit for creating the market for the handicapping books...but Beyer was a cut above, IMO. Ainslie was addressing handicapping novices...and it isn't very difficult to impress a novice. Beyer's crowd was much more informed, and it required a higher level of sophistication...which Beyer provided in good measure. Plus...Beyer was in our midst...and we were able to hear him explain himself in a much more direct manner than Ainslie did.
Cramer also belongs on the list along with Ainslie...and I would also place James Quinn and Tom Brohamer there as well.
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05-09-2015, 05:53 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Denver
Posts: 4,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Ainslie definitely deserves the credit for creating the market for the handicapping books...but Beyer was a cut above, IMO. Ainslie was addressing handicapping novices...and it isn't very difficult to impress a novice. Beyer's crowd was much more informed, and it required a higher level of sophistication...which Beyer provided in good measure. Plus...Beyer was in our midst...and we were able to hear him explain himself in a much more direct manner than Ainslie did.
Cramer also belongs on the list along with Ainslie...and I would also place James Quinn and Tom Brohamer there as well.
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There was a great period post-Beyer where we saw Mark Cramer, James Quinn, Dick Mitchell, Bill Quirin, and Steve Davidowitz put out multiple books on handicapping and betting. It was sort of the golden age of handicapping books.
I actually met Ainslie very late in his career. Very gracious man.
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05-09-2015, 06:22 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 28,388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
There was a great period post-Beyer where we saw Mark Cramer, James Quinn, Dick Mitchell, Bill Quirin, and Steve Davidowitz put out multiple books on handicapping and betting. It was sort of the golden age of handicapping books.
I actually met Ainslie very late in his career. Very gracious man.
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Tom Ainslie...from his Complete guide to Thoroughbred Racing:
"If your mail resembles mine, then it often includes intriguing correspondence from persons unknown...who are promising to grant you untold riches in exchange for a scant $20 bill. They have discovered handicapping systems, they say, which are able to unearth longshot winners after only five minutes of 'work'...and they would like to share their good fortune with you. Five minutes and you get a longshot. Five months...and you get an eviction notice."
How can you not like this guy?
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Last edited by thaskalos; 05-09-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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05-09-2015, 06:24 PM
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#28
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 25,607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Tom Ainslie...from his Complete guide to Thoroughbred Racing:
"If your mail resembles mine, then it often includes intriguing correspondence from persons unknown...who are promising to grant you untold riches in exchange for a scant $20 bill. They have discovered handicapping systems, they say, which are able to unearth longshot winners after only five minutes of 'work'...and they would like to share their good fortune with you. Five minutes and you get a longshot. Five months...and you get an eviction notice."
How can you not like this guy?
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Um, if you're one of the guys promising untold riches?
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05-09-2015, 06:31 PM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Denver
Posts: 4,163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
Tom Ainslie...from his Complete guide to Thoroughbred Racing:
"If your mail resembles mine, then it often includes intriguing correspondence from persons unknown...who are promising to grant you untold riches in exchange for a scant $20 bill. They have discovered handicapping systems, they say, which are able to unearth longshot winners after only five minutes of 'work'...and they would like to share their good fortune with you. Five minutes and you get a longshot. Five months...and you get an eviction notice."
How can you not like this guy?
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I pulled my article The Magic Number from Ainslie's first edition. It appeared in Horseplayer Magazine http://halveyonhorseracing.com/?p=147
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05-09-2015, 07:32 PM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 4,252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing
I'd put Tom Ainslie on top, not necessarily because he wrote the best book but because he paved the path for the other writers. He was the first one to show there was a market for a well written, intelligent handicapping book. Even Andy Beyer said, all handicapping books can be divided into two categories. Before and after Tom Ainslie. I'd also put Mark Cramer on my list.
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There should be little or no argument at all that Andrew Beyer is the legendary ambassador of modern thoroughbred handicapping.
However in terms of journalistic writing about horseracing I would put the late Jim Murray of the LA Times and the late Red Smith of the NY Times ahead of Beyer.
Having said that, Beyer gets the edge over them and Tom Ainsile with his introduction to the horseracing public a practical and simple handicapping tool in the form of his "speedfigure" methodology which is still the premier tool today after 40+ years.
Also we shouldn't overlook Phil Bull of Timeform who is truly the "godfather" of modern quantitative handicapping with his Timeform Ratings and Timefigures which he introduced in the 1930s.
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