Religion II

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

This makes everything perfectly clear. It's all relative.

What is the day after the day before yesterday?

You can only trace time from the Present, Humpty.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

You can only trace time from the Present, Humpty.

Eh, that's what the riddle is about bunky. RELATIVE TO THE PRESENT

Need I remind you the bet you proposed and babbled...... you said you had "proof" of effect before cause on the human scale.

Originally Posted by you

I have repeatedly stated that effects can often precede causes in the course of everyday human activities.

OF COURSE, imagination is on the human scale, but your proof is only imaginary.

Originally Posted by extremely-bollixed-up-car

Likewise, in our minds we often conceive of effects prior to causes! Or to wax more Aristotleian -- with our minds, we can indeed cut to the chase and bypass material, formal and efficient causes (which we cannot do physically) and get right to Granddaddy of all Causes -- the Final Cause. For it is the Final Cause that speaks to a thing's purpose, its end to its goal -- indeed to its teleology.

Absolute fantasy total bullsshit. Where is your practical example of effect before cause as we agreed you would post.?

Maybe yes you can bypass the physical.
Perhaps you do it by not using your brain, (or common sense)?

BTW, Aristotle, Aquinas or Prof Fesser never claimed the mind can really alter, AND REVERSE cause coming BEFORE effect.

IF SO QUOTE THEM DIRECTLY, BUNKY

[hcap]

I know Aquinas did not limit potential and actualization to the temporal, however all manifestations of "potential" including mental activity occur forward in time.

Before arrives before after. Cause then effect.

The usual example of an acorn potentially becoming a tree, although does not specifically giver the time direction, it is a priori.

Its actualization is from the simpler to the more complex.
Show us any "acorn" to tree event separate from time.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Eh, that's what the riddle is about bunky. RELATIVE TO THE PRESENT

Need I remind you the bet you proposed and babbled...... you said you had "proof" of effect before cause on the human scale.

OF COURSE, imagination is on the human scale, but your proof is only imaginary.
Absolute fantasy total bullsshit. Where is your practical example of effect before cause as we agreed you would post.?

Maybe yes you can bypass the physical.
Perhaps you do it by not using your brain, (or common sense)?

BTW, Aristotle, Aquinas or Prof Fesser never claimed the mind can really alter, AND REVERSE cause coming BEFORE effect.

IF SO QUOTE THEM DIRECTLY, BUNKY

So, ideas and thoughts are imaginary?

Keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

And I gave you plenty of real world examples as proof. Just goes to who mental activity certainly isn't your strong suit....not by a long shot.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

So, ideas and thoughts are imaginary?

Keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

And I gave you plenty of real world examples as proof. Just goes to who mental activity certainly isn't your strong suit....not by a long shot.

Ideas that oppose reality are either wrong or at best imaginary.

We must scrutinize honestly our thinking and not assume "pie in the sky" notions without some critical thinking.

[hcap]

We can conceive of flapping our wings hard enough to take off, so what?
We can imagine a window breaking before being struck by a hammer.

We must root our conceptions in what is possible.

[hcap]

If what we all can conceive is valid, my metaphorical biblical interpretations are just as real as yours. Atheism and agnosticism is as real as Christian fundamentalism, and all political points of view are the same.

Nothing left to say bunky

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by hcap

If what we all can conceive is valid, my metaphorical biblical interpretations are just as real as yours. Atheism and agnosticism is as real as Christian fundamentalism, and all political points of view are the same.

Nothing left to say bunky

Of course they're all the same, in this world....That's why you choose with your free will which one you believe....That's always been the Creator's Master Plan.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

Ideas that oppose reality are either wrong or at best imaginary.

We must scrutinize honestly our thinking and not assume "pie in the sky" notions without some critical thinking.

All the examples I gave were totally realistic, i.e. "possible" in case you don't get what "realistic" means.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Of course they're all the same, in this world....That's why you choose with your free will which one you believe....That's always been the Creator's Master Plan.

The master plan to let MILLIONS of INNOCENT women and children to die of hunger and disease?

Oh I forgot teleology!

Do you believe in the world of human events, effect comes before it cause(s), or gravity makes things fall upwards?

Oh excuse me, I shouldha asked if Chumpy tells you to believe the moon is made of green cheese, does your mouth water?

Can reality be changed by believing something strong enough in opposition to what the facts show? Evidently boxcar does. All of the high points of human culture and civilization, including religion has chosen to find truth, not to imagine what is true.

Of course not always successfully

[hcap]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Of course they're all the same, in this world....That's why you choose with your free will which one you believe....That's always been the Creator's Master Plan.

Exactly what criteria should be used to determine what to believe ?

Is belief trustworthy? Are all beliefs also all the same like all factual topics and political opinions? I can see why you like that silliness, that would make "QAnon" just the same as fact and verified knowledge.

If everyone blindly believed we would be torturing and slathering each other even more than we do now.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, there is a term "Buddhi."
Not much different than wisdom in the abrahamic traditions. IMHO, It would be wise to look for some.

..In Sanskrit-- बुद्धि, literally "discernment, discrimination, judgment, intelligence, understanding, presence, perception, reason, comprehension, realization, and self-knowledge"

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by ReplayRandall

Of course they're all the same, in this world....That's why you choose with your free will which one you believe....That's always been the Creator's Master Plan.

Some "Master Plan". The creator stays hidden from us for over 2,000 years...and then he sends messengers like Boxcar to sway us into believing in Him. How could such a "Master Plan" ever fail?

[Actor]

Originally Posted by hcap

Exactly what criteria should be used to determine what to believe ?

Verifiability is high on the list.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Actor

Verifiability is high on the list.

According both Randall and boxcar's latest, anything they can conceive, or imagine MENTALLY, is valid.

Verifiability goes out the window.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by boxcar

All the examples I gave were totally realistic, i.e. "possible" in case you don't get what "realistic" means.

The example you can not give is what started you off on imagining, to the exclusion of reality. Effect can not precede its cause(s). Period. Q.E.D.

No matter how much you hold your breath, and jump up and down insisting your circular statements about indiscriminate imagination "proving" it