Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board > Thoroughbred Horse Racing Discussion > General Racing Discussion


Poll: Pick the Winner in the Photo Finish below
Poll Options
Pick the Winner in the Photo Finish below

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 11-21-2009, 01:31 PM   #16
cj
@TimeformUSfigs
 
cj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 46,828
The technology is very outdated. It could be replaced if racing wasn't so deep in crap they could spend a little money. The Photo Finish camera is probably way, way down on the list of things that need fixing though. We have many larger problems.
cj is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 01:46 PM   #17
saratoga guy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox
My problem with photos of this nature is that there is no background reference points. How do you know where this photo was taken and where the line was drawn?
As startngate pointed out -- a photo finish photo is quite different from a still photo.

A photo finish photo looks at a location over time. EVERYTHING you see in that picture is on the finish line -- as odds as that seems.

The photo finish camera points -- very precisely -- at the finish line, and the film moves along at the speed of the horses (in the digital age it's a little different of course, but the principal is the same).

It can be a hard concept to grasp -- but EVERYTHING you see in that photo above is precisely on the finish line. What makes it different from a normal still photograph is that things on the right side of the photo are "older" than things on the left. The picture is showing a place -- the finish line -- over time (albeit a very brief time).

The stewards/placing judges move the white line until it hits the first nose -- and that's your winner (or a dead-heat if both noses touch the line).

(And to me, above, the #1 is the clear winner.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andymays
Hollywood had a big problem last year with a race where the camera snapped the shot before they hit the line
Actually the Machowsky photo was kind of a non-issue that related to just what I noted above -- that a photo finish picture is different from a normal still picture and it's a hard concept to grasp -- even for trainers!

That situation involved the finish line in the photo being placed a nudge further to the left than it should have been. The trainer then misinterpreted that.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/100392.html
saratoga guy is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 01:48 PM   #18
wisconsin
Registered User
 
wisconsin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Track Collector
BTW, I agree with those other posters who believe that NEITHER horse has reached the finish line in the photo.

But you must understand that there is no finish line in a photo. In days of old, the judge would "draw" a line in, and now it's electronically added. Picture using a T-square to mark a line on the nose furthest in front at the time of photo.
__________________
"I don't always frequent message boards, but when I do, I prefer PaceAdvantage."
wisconsin is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 01:49 PM   #19
johnhannibalsmith
Registered User
 
johnhannibalsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,402
The photo that is provided is not necessarily the image that the judges used to place the horse.

As was pointed out, the camera takes thousands of images per second at a stationary target, essentially the plane along which the mirror lies, which ought to be the wire.

That image is captured in its entirety on a high-res computer screen which can be magnified to such a degree that under normal circumstances, you could tell what color eyes the jock has through a set of goggles.

The person that creates the image that the public views is charged with doing several things in producing an image, one of which is to create an image that gives the best overall picture in terms of relativity.

That person is also usually supposed to be somewhat "artistic", insofar that they are expected to produce a picture that not only demonstrates the relative positions, but does so in an aesthetically pleasing manner. Clearly, this is not the priority if the two are mutually exclusive, so ordinarily in a case like this - one would choose to provide a photo like the one seen above and then hopefully, a more magnified photo of the same two so that there is no doubt that the magnified version is in fact the same image as the one seen at "less magnification".

The photo finish camera, unless it has been somehow tampered with, which is unlikely to say the least since most are stabilized to precision - is as close to infallible as it gets. The margin for error generally lies with those that read the image, but it is fairly difficult to misread an image with the incredible technology at one's hands.

Mistakes do happen, I'm sure - but the old stories about blown photos are a thing of the past with what is used today.

One of my favorite things to do is to invite people - bettors, horsemen, whoever - to watch a race upstairs and view the mechanics of the photo finish camera and the placings. The most grizzled veteran is amazed the first time that he/she sees it in action and usually will join the alliance of those that have faith in the camera and the computer.

The camera uses software that creates images that I can't view without the actual software, otherwise I would provide an example of a "race". That is what you see when you look at the image - the entire race on a lateral slide, with every horse's relative position and a perpendicular line that can be placed anywhere on the overall image created - but remember - the actual "photo" is only being taken on a straight plane to the wire.

It is a somewhat difficult concept to visualize if you can't see it so imagine the following:

You sit on the side of the highway and press a button on a camera that takes thousandes of images per second and shoot straight ahead without changing the focus of your shot (constant shot). You then take all of the 100,000 photos snapped in a matter of seconds and lay them side by side, overlapping the redundant portions to create a solid "panoramic-style" image.

You have taken a picture of the same spot over and over again - only the cars have changed position, but when you put it together - it appears as one fluid image and relative positioning is absolute.

For the record - the one looks a clear winner to me - but I trust fully well that the image was enlarged and the line was placed directly on the tip of the one's nose and the green can clearly be seen between the nose of the rail horse and the line.
johnhannibalsmith is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 01:49 PM   #20
saratoga guy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj
The technology is very outdated. It could be replaced if racing wasn't so deep in crap they could spend a little money. The Photo Finish camera is probably way, way down on the list of things that need fixing though. We have many larger problems.
Actually I'd argue that photo finish technology is something that works pretty well in racing...
saratoga guy is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 01:49 PM   #21
tzipi
Registered User
 
tzipi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,034
If you look clearly at noses. The outside horse def has it.
tzipi is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 02:32 PM   #22
gm10
Registered User
 
gm10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ringkoebing
Posts: 4,342
Look at this photo finish from Britain today.
The champion jumper Kauto Star made his seasonal debut (he won the photo).

Btw, you can bet on the results of a photo-finish on Betfair ... Kauto was 2/1.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/hom...258830854.6274
gm10 is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 02:38 PM   #23
joanied
Registered User
 
joanied's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wyoming, near Yellowstone Park...born/raised in Brooklyn,NY
Posts: 7,557
I voted dead heat...neither horse has his nose on the wire...but, considering the replies that explain the photo resolution ect....if I had to pick one, it'd be the one horse (outside)
__________________
joanied

"All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us"
Gandalf the Grey
joanied is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 02:38 PM   #24
andymays
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by saratoga guy
As startngate pointed out -- a photo finish photo is quite different from a still photo.

A photo finish photo looks at a location over time. EVERYTHING you see in that picture is on the finish line -- as odds as that seems.

The photo finish camera points -- very precisely -- at the finish line, and the film moves along at the speed of the horses (in the digital age it's a little different of course, but the principal is the same).

It can be a hard concept to grasp -- but EVERYTHING you see in that photo above is precisely on the finish line. What makes it different from a normal still photograph is that things on the right side of the photo are "older" than things on the left. The picture is showing a place -- the finish line -- over time (albeit a very brief time).

The stewards/placing judges move the white line until it hits the first nose -- and that's your winner (or a dead-heat if both noses touch the line).

(And to me, above, the #1 is the clear winner.)



Actually the Machowsky photo was kind of a non-issue that related to just what I noted above -- that a photo finish picture is different from a normal still picture and it's a hard concept to grasp -- even for trainers!

That situation involved the finish line in the photo being placed a nudge further to the left than it should have been. The trainer then misinterpreted that.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/100392.html

Thanks for the link. It was a big deal when it happened and now that I read the article the other deal was that Talamos' mount was not dq'd but he still got days.
andymays is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 03:27 PM   #25
wisconsin
Registered User
 
wisconsin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Posts: 3,208
I don't know where to find a link or if one even exists, but when Gato Del Sol won the Derby, Sports Illustrated had the entire film "strip" image from the photo finish camera in the story across two pages.
__________________
"I don't always frequent message boards, but when I do, I prefer PaceAdvantage."
wisconsin is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 03:32 PM   #26
wisconsin
Registered User
 
wisconsin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mukwonago, WI
Posts: 3,208
One more thing to remember, is the mirror is not always at the actual finish line. When people around me always say so and so "got to the wire", I always remind them it's where the mirror is, not the pole. Some mirrors are actually before or after the pole, like Churchill. The last track I know of that had an actual wire at the finish was Tampa Bay Downs. I don't think anyone has one anymore.

The photo finish eye only reacts to moving objects, which is why a line is drawn on, as opposed to a photo of the old school wire.
__________________
"I don't always frequent message boards, but when I do, I prefer PaceAdvantage."
wisconsin is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 03:37 PM   #27
juanepstein
devo-lutionizing
 
juanepstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: its a beautiful world
Posts: 14,134
has him beat by a half an inch.
juanepstein is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 03:43 PM   #28
Greyfox
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,962
I'll take everyone's word for it, but it seems to me that in a digital age it can't be that hard to make the outside horse win or lose.

.
Greyfox is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 03:46 PM   #29
kenwoodallpromos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 9,569
4 or 1?

1 won. \If that was the Qarters, no needf to 2nd guess- results are posted in decimal time, not "a nose".
kenwoodallpromos is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Old 11-21-2009, 03:50 PM   #30
juanepstein
devo-lutionizing
 
juanepstein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: its a beautiful world
Posts: 14,134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox
I'll take everyone's word for it, but it seems to me that in a digital age it can't be that hard to make the outside horse win or lose.

.
thats last years melbourne cup. i had my money on the grey BAUER trained by lucani and ridden by corey brown.heartbreaker! but glad he and i nailed it this year.
juanepstein is offline   Reply With Quote Reply
Reply





Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

» Advertisement
» Current Polls
Wh deserves to be the favorite? (last 4 figures)
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.