Meadow calls Sartin con man

[Half Smoke]

........................................


I'm not saying that what Meadow wrote is true
just pointing out that is what he wrote

http://www.trpublishing.com/wp-conte...atest-Cons.pdf


from the article:

"Then there was Howard Sartin, a special case all his own, in that he combined a sincere desire to help players with a bizarre, fabricated backstory—he claimed to be a psychotherapist, yet he was never licensed, anywhere, to practice psychotherapy, and his Ph.D. came delivered in the mail. Sartin was one of the first to realize that pace analysis—a concept that was decades old—would lend itself beautifully to the emerging business of handicapping software. His preposterous claims (64% wins betting two horses with an average payoff of $10.80! truck drivers who were compulsive gamblers all turned into winning horseplayers!) and spellbinding speaking style soon attracted an army of loyal followers.

He would go on to become one of the best-known teachers of pace handicapping and a popular seminar speaker, his name associated with such computer programs as Kinetic Generator, Entropy, Selector, SPN, Fractals, Quad-Rater, Phase III, Thoromation, Chaos, Synergism, Synergetic Match-Up II, Ultra Scan, Energy, and Pace Launcher. Years after his death in 2009, the Sartin Methodology continues on. The latest version is called Racing Decision Support System, or RDSS. Quite a legacy for a man who cheerfully agreed that he had little interest in gambling himself."

[thaskalos]

The con men only exist because people like to be lied to. The truth is often very discouraging to hear...so...people will readily pay someone to tell them irresistible lies.

I used to look down at the con man...hastily accusing him of criminally fleecing the gullible public of funds which they might otherwise have needed for other, more "worthwhile" things. It took me many years to realize that the con man provides a valuable service...for which he deserves to be handsomely rewarded. He supplies "hope" to a group of people who can't face the reality of life as it is...and who need to live in the fantasy world that only lies could provide. None of us can live without hope.

[Zman179]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The con men only exist because people like to be lied to. The truth is often very discouraging to hear...so...people will readily pay someone to tell them irresistible lies.

I used to look down at the con man...hastily accusing him of criminally fleecing the gullible public of funds which they might otherwise have needed for other, more "worthwhile" things. It took me many years to realize that the con man provides a valuable service...for which he deserves to be handsomely rewarded. He supplies "hope" to a group of people who can't face the reality of life as it is...and who need to live in the fantasy world that only lies could provide. None of us can live without hope.

Very...philosophical.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The con men only exist because people like to be lied to. The truth is often very discouraging to hear...so...people will readily pay someone to tell them irresistible lies.

I used to look down at the con man...hastily accusing him of criminally fleecing the gullible public of funds which they might otherwise have needed for other, more "worthwhile" things. It took me many years to realize that the con man provides a valuable service...for which he deserves to be handsomely rewarded. He supplies "hope" to a group of people who can't face the reality of life as it is...and who need to live in the fantasy world that only lies could provide. None of us can live without hope.

I'm not buying it.

[barn32]

I wonder what Dick Schmidt, Tom Brohamer and Jim the Hat Bradshaw would have to say about Sartin's "con-man" legacy.

Just to name a few.

[classhandicapper]

He appears to be saying that Sartin made some claims that were not true, but that's doesn't mean the methodology was totally without merit. I was never a big fan of some of the Sartin formulas, but I think building track profiles, classifying the horses style, looking at pace matchups, etc.. all have merit.

[Tom]

And Ken Masa, who wrote HTR based on Tom's MPH in the beginning.

And Ted Craven, who carries on the "evolution of the revolution" to this day.

And the group over at Pace and Cap who live Sartin's legacy every day, especially Bill V. who embodies the entire Sartin methodology with his systematic, structured approach and record keeping, and member FTL who carried on the teaching branch by writing several lengthy and informative PDF manuals to help new players.

Why, the PNC group is even carrying on the PaceAdvantage Toga get together on Alabama weekend every year!

Myself, I still use many of the Sartin concepts to this day. I am currently testing a "new" Sartin factor I made up and so far, the results are promising. I was never conned by anyone. I learned a lot from the groups of PIRCO teachers I knew not all was what it appeared to be, but it did not matter, because the material was valid. And it was not really a mathematical procedure, but a psychological one anyways. Not everyone got that part of it.

My question would be, why would someone bring up this 3 year old article about a man who died 10 years ago?

[thaskalos]

I think the main criticism about the Sartin group stems from the mystery surrounding its history after the publicity that it initially garnered. Meadow wasn't the only handicapping author to criticize Sartin; James Quinn RAVED about Sartin's handicapping discoveries in the first edition of his book The Best of Thoroughbred Handicapping...but not a single word about Sartin's handicapping contributions appeared in Quinn's revised edition of that book, which was published 20 years later.

What ultimately happened to those gambling-addicted truckers who were transformed into "winners" by Sartin? Did they go back to driving trucks...or are they still silently assaulting the mutuel windows with their sophisticated handicapping methods? And...what caused the PIRCO group to dissolve amidst so much conflict and finger-pointing? Inquiring minds want to know...

[ubercapper]

Howard Sartin, much like Dick Mitchell, were mentors to some and something else all together to others.

Mitchell had seminars including trips to the track where he showed off tremendous winning tickets. People told me that was the only time he ever bet and he never showed the losing tickets to anyone. I don't know if that was true but even if true, as with Sartin, that doesn't take away the legacy of the man and how he evolved the theory of value wagering.

I compare both to "Zig Zigler" though maybe "Tony Robbins" would be better. They both had the "you can do it" attitude which they imparted on many people, some to their benefit.

I had the privilege of knowing both and can only say I am better off for it. I would never have had the career I have if not for both men, so no matter their flaws I appreciate them personally and their contributions to handicapping and wagering.


As for the PIRCO group, I had a lot of contact with Howard in his final years. We collaborated, along with his programmer Guy, on updating his product to input files from TrackMaster. I can't say what happened other than after Howard and Guy passed there was little interest except from Ted Craven, who took up the work and continues it to this day.

[lefty359]

If Sartin was a con man why did so many openly steal his concepts. Even Schmidt and Pizzolla stole Doc's mailing list and started selling a program based on TPR. Doc was an idea man, a true innovator

[Tom]

And...what caused the PIRCO group to dissolve amidst so much conflict and finger-pointing? Inquiring minds want to know...

Why?
Would it affect the performance of the material when used properly?

One would get much more benefit by reading his Paceline Manual than Barry's gossipy hit piece.
Remember, Barry was himself a seller and he also criticized other sellers. So take Barry with a big grain of salt.

His new book is great (thanks to Ken Masa - roots to Sartin) and I judge it on it's own merit, not Barry.

I have no idea where the truck drivers are, or if there were ever any truck drivers at all (Patrick? Were yo there? LOL!) what I do know is that the Sartin Show motivated me to make the material work by doing
it over and over and not quitting.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

He appears to be saying that Sartin made some claims that were not true, but that's doesn't mean the methodology was totally without merit. I was never a big fan of some of the Sartin formulas, but I think building track profiles, classifying the horses style, looking at pace matchups, etc.. all have merit.

Having studied most all of the Sartin material I am fairly certain that Sartin had nothing to do with creating the formulas, track profiles, pace matchups etc. To me, the lesson best learned from Sartin is that making bets should be done based on an analytical process devoid of emotion. The tools and formulas were never to be used blindly but were meant to be used when they were shown to be highly predictive.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by Half Smoke

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His preposterous claims (64% wins betting two horses with an average payoff of $10.80! "

Is it possible the ghost of Sartin lives on , here on PA ??

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Having studied most all of the Sartin material I am fairly certain that Sartin had nothing to do with creating the formulas, track profiles, pace matchups etc. To me, the lesson best learned from Sartin is that making bets should be done based on an analytical process devoid of emotion. The tools and formulas were never to be used blindly but were meant to be used when they were shown to be highly predictive.

Why did velocity ratings and those other things get associated with him?

I read some materials a few years after it started getting some publicity. When I tinkered with the formulas I decided I liked what I was already doing better. My thinking at the time on pace most closely matched what CJ was doing. After awhile, I stopped making my own pace figures and started using CJ's as a private customer (pre TimeformUS). He was doing a great job, was national, and that freed up time for me to do other things. I still create track/distance profiles though.

[Light]

Despite some ostentatious claims by Sartin, he does have some practical tools for the everyday handicapper that are still useful today. I find nothing useful from BM's works. So who is the real conman?