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Old 04-24-2017, 12:47 AM   #901
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dnlgfnk:

It seems you are not familiar with holy writ.

boxcar is the pillar and bulwark of the truth. boxcar 1:1

No man is infallible, but fallible man, boxcar, teachings and proclamations are infallible. boxcar 2:1

The witness of the New Testament is not needed to teach the Triune nature of one God. boxcar 3:1
Hello, Showme.

I probably misunderstood from skimming the preface posts to the Trinity-taught in-the-OT issue, and I'm sure I was unclear in my latest to him. He seems to be saying that the 1st century converts would have corroborated Jesus' Trinitarian oral revelation with the Hebrew scriptures "teaching" of same. I'm saying that in the lived Incarnation itself, the disciples began to associate the things only God could do with the Person and self-sacrificial, agape love of Christ, and the idea slowly began to form that they could apply the Person of Christ to the Father (Jn 14:9f).

I'm leaning heavily on Frank Sheed's Theology and Sanity here. Since I've never seen nor heard of Trinity-taught-in-the-OT stressed to the degree that Boxcar does here, I'm presuming that Boxcar is leaning on...Boxcar?
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:12 AM   #902
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Hello, Showme.

I probably misunderstood from skimming the preface posts to the Trinity-taught in-the-OT issue, and I'm sure I was unclear in my latest to him. He seems to be saying that the 1st century converts would have corroborated Jesus' Trinitarian oral revelation with the Hebrew scriptures "teaching" of same. I'm saying that in the lived Incarnation itself, the disciples began to associate the things only God could do with the Person and self-sacrificial, agape love of Christ, and the idea slowly began to form that they could apply the Person of Christ to the Father (Jn 14:9f).

I'm leaning heavily on Frank Sheed's Theology and Sanity here. Since I've never seen nor heard of Trinity-taught-in-the-OT stressed to the degree that Boxcar does here, I'm presuming that Boxcar is leaning on...Boxcar?
If the Trinity does not find its roots in the OT, Christians are even more vulnerable to the charge that the Trinity is a man-made religious invention drummed up by Jesus fanatics.

Doc, I have another question for you. Maybe you'll tackle this one: During Christ's ministry here on earth, was Peter aware of His Lord's divinity?
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:26 AM   #903
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This post is an embarrassment even by your standards Boxie.You begin with a logically incoherent inference,somehow equating the Skin pigmentation of mammals with the "nature of Man".Can an Ethiopian's skin or a leopard's spots be evil or corrupt?Then you trip all over the law if identity, it does not support nor provide any evidence that your assertions about man's Nature are correct.It simply states that Everything that exists has a specific nature.And you complete your Inane trifecta by asserting that this evil sinful creature was somehow created by an Omnipotent,Omniscient entity. Who will fix him, provided he holds the correct beliefs. And by the way, holding these correct beliefs is entirely dependent upon external circumstances outside of the poor creature's control.Very logical.
The Law of Identity does not state what you say. This is number one. Number two: Give us an example of how this particular law of logic can be violated.

And the same challenge goes out to you, Mr. Actor. Should be a piece of cake for you since you once boasted that your philosophy is logic.

I'll be waiting with bated breath, gentlemen.

And by the way, Hanky, the Ethiopian and leopard analogy in scripture is valid because the central idea behind Jeremiah drawing a parallel between them and man's sinful behavior is that neither can change what they are. It's not within their power. This is precisely why it's such a sharp, pointed analogy.

See, Hankly...man does have limitations.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:03 AM   #904
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If the Trinity does not find its roots in the OT, Christians are even more vulnerable to the charge that the Trinity is a man-made religious invention drummed up by Jesus fanatics.
Oh my, we can't have that, now can we?

Like I said, square peg in round hole...backfitting...and all the rest. You practically admit it yourself here, which is amazing in and of itself.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:30 AM   #905
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Oh my, we can't have that, now can we?

Like I said, square peg in round hole...backfitting...and all the rest. You practically admit it yourself here, which is amazing in and of itself.
No...God is much wiser than that. He would not allow the charge of back fitting to stand which is why the plurality of persons in the Godhead is found in the OT. Besides...biblical Christianity is nothing less than Fulfilled Judaism; therefore it stands to reason that the plurality of persons in the Godhead would find its ground in the OT. Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets (i.e. the entire OT) and all the promises made under Old Covenant Judaism are YES in Christ in this New Covenant era of...dare I say...New Covenant Judaism?

And by the way...square pegs are inconsistent with round holes. If plurality of persons in the Godhead is not taught in the OT, then contradictions would have been unearthed by now in the passages I quoted or cited. But instead...all we find is total consistency and harmony with all scripture.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:31 AM   #906
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Besides...biblical Christianity is nothing less than Fulfilled Judaism;
Not according to Judaism it isn't...

Think about that one.
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:45 AM   #907
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Not according to Judaism it isn't...

Think about that one.
What is there to think about? How would the dead be able to see the light of the truth? What part of this verse didn't you understand the first time around:

Deut 29:4
4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
NASB
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:02 PM   #908
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If the Trinity does not find its roots in the OT, Christians are even more vulnerable to the charge that the Trinity is a man-made religious invention drummed up by Jesus fanatics.
Argument from consequences: Arguing against a point's truth based on perceived negative outcome.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:07 PM   #909
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Besides...biblical Christianity is nothing less than Fulfilled Judaism; ...
Unproven premise.
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Old 04-24-2017, 02:23 PM   #910
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The Law of Identity does not state what you say.
Yes, it does. "The law of identity states that each thing is composed of its own unique set of characteristic qualities or features" -- Liebnitz.
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Give us an example of how this particular law of logic can be violated.
The most common violation of the law of identity is equivocation, which you often employ.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:54 PM   #911
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Yes, it does. "The law of identity states that each thing is composed of its own unique set of characteristic qualities or features" -- Liebnitz.
The most common violation of the law of identity is equivocation, which you often employ.
I asked for a specific example. Prove that I ever employed the fallacy of equivocation. In fact, you don't even know what equivocation means because you falsely accused me of engaging in such when I gave the definition of the Law of Non-contradiction. I wrote (often for that matter!!):

A thing cannot exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. Because I used a perfectly legitimate word for this definition, i.e. "sense" you wrongly accused me of equivocating.

The Law of Identity says that a thing is what a thing is; and therefore, cannot be something else.

Now...give me a bona fide, specific violation of the Law of Identity.
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:40 PM   #912
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I asked for a specific example.
No, you did not. You asked for an example. Only now have added the word "specific." That's equivocation. (or moving the goalposts. Take your pick.) Follow your own rules. According to you qualifying a statement post facto is not permitted. So don't do it yourself.
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Prove that I ever employed the fallacy of equivocation.
The easiest way for me to do that is to just wait for you to do it again, which should not be long, given your track record.
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Old 04-24-2017, 09:54 PM   #913
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Monotheism v. Polytheism, Part 1

In Judaism and Islam, monotheism means God is one entity -- one person. In biblical Christianity, however, monotheism means God is one. And when the bible says that "God is one", it doesn't mean that he's one person. [/b]It means that there is perfect, absolute unity among the persons of the Godhead.[/b]. These persons are not only of one mind always, and not only act in one accord always, as important as these qualities are, but they equally share each other's attributes. While distinct persons, they are equal in every respect. But understand this: As fallen, sinful, corrupt human beings, who are ourselves walking, talking dichotomies (as very often evidenced by our own irrational behavior, our hypocrisies, etc. ), we are not capable of fully understanding this kind of unity; for we have never experienced this kind of perfect, flawless unity, nor have we witnessed it in others. Perfect Unity requires Holiness and Righteousness. These are the prerequisites to Absolute Unity.

So, why did Moses write what he did in Deut 6:4? Why did he tell the Israelites that God is one, if he didn't mean one entity, when they all understood that the entire ancient world was steeped in Polytheism? When we moderns think of polytheism, we over-simplify that belief system by reducing it to the worship of multiple gods. And while this is true as far it goes, there is much more to it than this. The ancient peoples of the world, fully corrupt by their evil hearts, could not relate to Absolute Unity. So, they invented gods who were as discordant, divided and dichotomous as they were! Not only this, but all this division among their gods made them unequal. No one of their gods was all-powerful and all-wise and all-knowing and all-present, etc. In all cases in polytheism what one of their gods lacked, it took another god to pick up the slack.

When we study the ancient polytheistic religions, we find that they invented every kind of god under the sun, including the sun itself. Every nation or land had its own peculiar god to that land. In addition, there were even more specific gods -- fertility gods, gods of the valleys, gods of the mountains, gods of the plains, gods of the deserts and these were just the tip of the iceberg. We haven't even touched on the various gods of the heavens -- moon goddesses, gods of the stars, etc., etc. And all these gods were revered or worshiped because each one possessed some quality or attribute that the others did not have. There was absolutely no equality among the pagans' gods!

Now contrast these facts with what scripture teaches about monotheism, beginning in the OT. God is one because God is ALL. As the Unmoved Mover, he lacks no quality or attribute. He IS all-powerful. He IS all-knowing. He IS all-wise. He IS omnipresent. All the persons of the Godhead fully and equally share in all these attributes. The union among the persons of the Godhead is perfect. It's absolute. And it is in this sense, therefore, that Moses wrote that "God is one". But I don't expect anyone here to take my word for it. To see if this is the correct interpretation of Deut 6:4 (and other OT passages as well), we must, as I told Doc the other day, perform a word study of the key word in the passage -- one. How is the Hebrew term eechad, translated "one", used in the OT?

Doc knew where I was going with all this but because he can't shake his RCC presupposition about the trinity in the OT, he refused to answer my simple question about Deut 6:4 because he sensed that it would indeed put him in a nasty catch-22, be damned if you do or be damned if you don't dilemma. To be consistent with his RCC belief, he would have had to answer that Moses taught that God is one person. But that would present no small contradiction with the NT scriptures. And what professing Christian wants to open that foul smelling can of worms? On the other hand, if he said that Moses was teaching about the perfect unity of the Godhead, then that interpretation would contradict what his church has taught him about the lack of any teaching on the plurality of persons in the Godhead in the OT. He would have had to draw on NT theology to support his answer and, therefore, be guilty of the very thing PA falsely charged me with: BACK FITTING! So...Doc did the only thing he could: Cut his losses by not answering the question!

Tomorrow Lord willin ' and the crik doesn't rise, we'll do a little word study in the OT. Trust me, though, and have no fear: The study will be fruitful and confirm my interpretation of the Shema.
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:08 PM   #914
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Now contrast these facts with what scripture teaches about monotheism, beginning in the OT. God is one because God is ALL. As the Unmoved Mover, he lacks no quality or attribute. He IS all-powerful. He IS all-knowing. He IS all-wise. He IS omnipresent. All the persons of the Godhead fully and equally share in all these attributes. The union among the persons of the Godhead is perfect. It's absolute. And it is in this sense, therefore, that Moses wrote that "God is one". But I don't expect anyone here to take my word for it. To see if this is the correct interpretation of Deut 6:4 (and other OT passages as well), we must, as I told Doc the other day, perform a word study of the key word in the passage -- one. How is the Hebrew term eechad, translated "one", used in the OT?
Is there any proof to back any of this up...or is it just "hearsay" that we must accept on faith alone? How long must humanity wait for proof of how "all-powerful", or "all-knowing", God really is?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:16 PM   #915
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Is there any proof to back any of this up...or is it just "hearsay" that we must accept on faith alone? How long must humanity wait for proof of how "all-powerful", or "all-knowing", God really is?
Quick personal question, have you ever talked with someone who has actually died twice?
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