Religion II

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by Actor

That door swings both ways. Your opinion about God's existence does not rise to the level of fact. Your inclusion of scriptural writings only goes to your opinion of what is or is not credible evidence. Ergo you only have an opinion which is worthless to me. If you can't understand that simple concept too bad.

What does rise to the level of fact is my statement that there is absolutely no evidence that God exists. If you have such evidence, let's hear it.

Your own opinion is worthless to you, if you agree with The Atheist’s Guide to Reality.

[ReplayRandall]

Originally Posted by Actor

No. Another way of putting it is that sin is a human construct.

IMO, sin is a human deconstruct, which is embedded in our flesh and minds.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Why do you ask of me and Christianity? Point out the post I made to you asking you to justify your beliefs and opinions, like you imagine I do. Did I post unsolicited links to books for you to read?

Point out the posts I gave you unsolicited advice to free you from your opinions.

Again, pray tell us why do you believe I or anyone else needs your tutelage?

Why does the Church believe that "the world" needs hers...? And why are Christians commanded to proselytize....to preach the Gospel to every corner of the world, even to the rocks themselves, unsolicited by others....

[Hank]

Originally Posted by Actor

Gravity does not push (or pull) anything.

The 'mass' of the object is what bends space, which in turn results is gravity.Right?

[Light]

I'd like to point out that from all the thousands of NDE's , NONE come back with a religious agenda. All types of faiths go to the other side including atheists and all come back believing in God but do not advocate any particular religion. They may continue to practice their own religion but they are aware that primarily they have a purpose on Earth and an internal evolution they have to make that requires growth to reach enlightenment and be closer to God consciousness. This desire to be with God internally becomes natural from ones own desire once "the student is ready". Not forced or threatened. After an NDE, you are definitely ready. But other sources may also be persuasive such as a traumatic event.

I have not had an NDE, but have had profound enough experiences (not pleasant) that moved me in the direction to understand that I am like an apprentice here in my quest to attain that deep level of wisdom and love which I have been shown exists. I am also aware that there are beings here helping us on our path, just as those on the other side encounter spiritual beings who are on a higher level of consciousness, helping others to advance. You may think I'm imagining beings, but once you start to open up within, you start connecting with the vast cosmos within and without that you were unaware of before.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

Why does the Church believe that "the world" needs hers...? And why are Christians commanded to proselytize....to preach the Gospel to every corner of the world, even to the rocks themselves, unsolicited by others....

Are you stating that you are on a divine mission? Which deity sent you?
As far as I am concerned you have already heard the Gospel, per your own statements. So there is no need to proselytize or to preach the Gospel to you.

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Are you stating that you are on a divine mission? Which deity sent you?
As far as I am concerned you have already heard the Gospel, per your own statements. So there is no need to proselytize or to preach the Gospel to you.

The one thing I would like to be is "the Catcher in the Rye....

[VigorsTheGrey]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Are you stating that you are on a divine mission? Which deity sent you?
As far as I am concerned you have already heard the Gospel, per your own statements. So there is no need to proselytize or to preach the Gospel to you.

I like to think of myself as a salonniere
and that these threads are a species of salon...
and that the gentlemen and gentlewomen here
might converse as amiable friends and acquaintances...

That any and all are at their pleasure
to join in the conversation at any time
and we could for once dispense with
the tedium of rather formal solicitations...

I pray that our conversations be lively,
entertaining, and contribute to the
uplifting of our common
and not so common humanity....
Vigors

[Actor]

Originally Posted by Light

All types of faiths go to the other side including atheists and all come back believing in God ...

Wrong. There is at least one poster on an atheist web site who has had an NDE and it did not change his beliefs one bit. I can give you a link if you want. I seriously doubt that this person is the only one.

Originally Posted by Light

I have not had an NDE, ...

Want one? Any competent anesthesiologist can induce one.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I made a passing comment that "God is intensely interested" in man's affairs on this earth. I said this because God is supposedly sitting up there in "judgement" of our earthly actions...and because he sacrificed his only son in order to "save us" from our sinful nature. But SMTW rejected this "assertion" of mine...and wants me to PROVE that "God has an intense interest" in man's earthy affairs.

That's all there is to it...as far as I can see.

True God is very interested in our plight regarding the sacrifice of Jesus to free us from the bondage of sin and sin's wages, death, which I stated in post 488 (see below).

What I attempted to ask where is this idea or concept, God's interest in our plight extends to protecting man from physical pain and suffering whether such suffering is caused by nature or another man's free will actions, found in Orthodox or Catholic theology your assumption about Remember the context of the discussion is how can God be benevolent if pain and suffering exists.

This is my post 488:

Yes, I read Genesis. It doesn't contain your assumption. Can you cite for me the source from Orthodox or Catholic teaching your contention about God, who is supremely interested in man's plight on this planet?

(My above response was framed in the context of the discussion, about God owing a duty, to man, to prevent pain and suffering. However, I understand my remark could have been clearer and now see how you could believe I was denying that God was interested in man's plight.)

Jesus came to save us from the bondage to sin. A spiritual state, not a physical state.

Jesus taught us we are not of the world, and we are to die to ourselves everyday and carry our cross.

Christianity is a way of life, a life a spiritual growth, through the Spirit of Love based on the gift of faith and graces. Our home is in heaven i.e. in union with God, not on this current planet.

In classical theism it is not about wealth, food, comfort's of the world.

In Genesis, I find no assumption that God's interest in our plight extends to and includes protecting man from physical pain and suffering. In fact doesn't Genesis put curses upon the earth so man has to toil for his bread and upon the woman regarding pain in child bearing?

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by HalvOnHorseracing

If I tell my child not to run out into the street, and she wants to experience the consequence of running out into the street, no matter how benevolent I am, I'm not granting her the experience. Take my word for it. Not worth the knowledge.

Frankly, the history of humanity might have been a lot more boring, but not a bad trade off. Just thought I'd toss that in.

Neither would I, because both of us are not omniscient. If I knew the desired experience would be beneficial, I would allow my child to have the experience.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

God sent his only son to be tortured and crucified on the cross...so man could gain access to the "eternal life". Isn't this a strong indication that God is interested in the affairs of man in this life? I have to provide FURTHER proof to you that God must have an intense interest in man's earthly plight?

Does your first paragraph here imply that God and man share the "similar souls"...and similar "soul capabilities"?

As I said, Catholic and Orthodox theology do not teach God is anthropomorphic.
God is spirit. God by nature is an incorporeal being (spirit), an incorporeal being has no body and thus no soul. "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." John 4:24.

Man as a corporeal being possess a soul. A rational soul having faculty of powers, including Memory, Intellect and Will. The soul is the dwelling place of God in man and the soul having powers of faculty makes man in the likeness and image of God.

I believe I've satisfactorily explained my position about God's love for man and his interest in our salvation.

[Show Me the Wire]

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey

I like to think of myself as a salonniere
and that these threads are a species of salon...
and that the gentlemen and gentlewomen here
might converse as amiable friends and acquaintances...

That any and all are at their pleasure
to join in the conversation at any time
and we could for once dispense with
the tedium of rather formal solicitations...

I pray that our conversations be lively,
entertaining, and contribute to the
uplifting of our common
and not so common humanity....
Vigors

Sorry I am not a salon type of guy. I am not much for hanging with the fashionable people. Been there done that. Best wishes to you though.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Actor

There's no such thing as sin.

Of course, there is. Even Natural Revelation (the real world as we all know it) reveals this to us. I have often discussed the universal Law of Distrust in the past. The law itself proves that human beings are morally deficient.

But there is another law, also, that proves we're all sinners: The Law of Government. This is another universal principle among the sons of men. All nations have governments and all governments have laws and all laws are made to regulate behavior and to punish law-breakers. Yes, yes, yes...I know, spare of the inane evolution drivel -- but the fact remains that human beings are morally deficient. Not only are we morally deficient but both these universal laws prove that men do have "free will" because we are held accountable for our choices and actions. Universally, it is recognized and acknowledged that we have the power of choice. The simple truth of the matter is that if men were not acutely and chronically morally deficient, there would be no need for laws.

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching...
NASB

You theories as usual, Mr. Actor, don't square with reality whatsoever. There are no inherently righteous human beings on this planet and the megabytes of irony here is that all men know this intuitively, which is why there are governments and laws in the first place, but very few people acknowledge our utter sinfulness.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Show Me the Wire

Yes because in my opinion it is a better explanation, just like Aristotle improved on Plato.

Hmm...a twisted analogy if there ever was one. You're saying that Aquinas improved upon God's Word just as Aristotle improved on Plato? Aquinas was sharper than God? Did Aquinas ever teach knowledge to God?