Was Secretariat the greatest?

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by Turkoman

That was an incredible move. I think he went from last to first in 1/16 or less? Not sure, but I've never seen anything like it.

Turkoman

A devastating move that just kept on going. Chills.

[SmartyLane]

Originally Posted by RaceBookJoe

And it was around a turn. Have you ever watched his first race? He comes flying down near the wire after getting slammed at the start. rbj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuATpq0t62E

In the book by Bill Nack he mentions that it was the belief of Lauren and Penny that this is why Secretariat always took back right out of the gate. Who knows maybe true, but he would come out of the gate slowly and then get himself in the race VERY VERY quickly.

[OntheRail]

YES... Truly a rare individual.

[Bruddah]

He was the best Race horse but not the best Stud/Sire. As it has been said "he left it all on the race track".

[appistappis]

YES, he was a tremendous machine.

[Turkoman]

Originally Posted by RaceBookJoe

And it was around a turn. Have you ever watched his first race? He comes flying down near the wire after getting slammed at the start. rbj

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuATpq0t62E

Yes, I've watched it. After the start, it looked like he had no chance at all. In the end, he was flying down the inside. He definitely would have won the race had it not been for that horrible start.

Turkoman

[Sericm]

Originally Posted by tzipi

Well I'll say this. Love Dr Fager and he was a GREAT horse but he had his limits. I noticed that when he ran long distances(1 1/4), if he had to run 1:09.2 or faster upfront he folded in the stretch(twice). Both times it was Damascus who went up to him upfront and beat him. Secretariat could run 1:09 and change in a 1 1/2 race for 6F and win huge. Again LOVED the Doctor. Great horse and athlete but I can't say better than Secretariat because I think Dr had his limits.

Have to disagree here. Whitely entered Hedevar as an entry with Damascus for one purpose. To run him into the ground because Dr. Fager was pure speed.
My Opinion only.

[tzipi]

Originally Posted by Sericm

Have to disagree here. Whitely entered Hedevar as an entry with Damascus for one purpose. To run him into the ground because Dr. Fager was pure speed.
My Opinion only.

Damascus in the Woodward had the lead(after being rushed up) by a 1/2 length after the first call and beat Fager by 10. So Damascus was also setting fast fractions too after the first call. Damascus was also just a head behind Fager in the Brooklyn at the first call. Damascus did not close on these guys in deep stretch. He was up on the lead setting the fractions also. Now granted Fager had to be upfront with a Hedevar in the earliest stage and it doesn't make winning easy at all doing that. But I guess that's what I mean when you look at what Secretariat had to run fraction wise in a 1 1/2 race and he still won like a freak.

I just think Fager as GREAT as he was, was not a horse who could handle long races under tough fractions like some others. Secretariat was a freak with no limits I believe. Fager was surely one of the greatest sprinters if not the best, no doubt and also he had some great route races. But yes, these are all our opinions and both horses were unbelievable athletes.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by tzipi

Damascus in the Woodward had the lead(after being rushed up) by a 1/2 length after the first call and beat Fager by 10. So Damascus was also setting fast fractions too after the first call. Damascus was also just a head behind Fager in the Brooklyn at the first call. Damascus did not close on these guys in deep stretch. He was up on the lead setting the fractions also. Now granted Fager had to be upfront with a Hedevar in the earliest stage and it doesn't make winning easy at all doing that. But I guess that's what I mean when you look at what Secretariat had to run fraction wise in a 1 1/2 race and he still won like a freak.

I just think Fager as GREAT as he was, was not a horse who could handle long races under tough fractions like some others. Secretariat was a freak with no limits I believe. Fager was surely one of the greatest sprinters if not the best, no doubt and also he had some great route races. But yes, these are all our opinions and both horses were unbelievable athletes.

Great post. I love both horses as well. Under 9F, give me the Doctor. Over 9F, give me Secretariat. As for Big Red, I believe I've seen all his races, and I never saw him tire at the wire. When he lost, he was holding position in the lane.

[trp]

Originally Posted by tzipi

Damascus in the Woodward had the lead(after being rushed up) by a 1/2 length after the first call and beat Fager by 10. So Damascus was also setting fast fractions too after the first call. Damascus was also just a head behind Fager in the Brooklyn at the first call. Damascus did not close on these guys in deep stretch. He was up on the lead setting the fractions also. Now granted Fager had to be upfront with a Hedevar in the earliest stage and it doesn't make winning easy at all doing that. But I guess that's what I mean when you look at what Secretariat had to run fraction wise in a 1 1/2 race and he still won like a freak.

You've got some incorrect information.

In the Woodward, Damascus was 5th by 12 lengths at the 1/2 and 4th by 8 lengths at the 3/4. After a mile he was 1st by 1/2 length.

In the Brooklyn H, Damascus was 5th by 11 lengths at the 1/2 and 5th by 8 lengths at the 3/4. After a mile he was 2nd by 1/2 length.

I got this information from the charts, but you can watch both the races on Youtube and get the gist of Damascus's positioning.

[Steve R]

Apropos of this thread, here is a fantasy race involving all 11 TC winners.

Secretariat (#7, the 5-2 favorite in the orange silks) is 7th early with Count Fleet on the lead followed by War Admiral, Sir Barton and Affirmed. Into the first turn Count Fleet opens up by 2 1/2 with Affirmed moving into second and War Admiral holding 3rd. Affirmed draws to within a half length of the lead after a half in :46 flat. Secretariat comes off the rail on the backstretch and Count Fleet opens up a bit on a Affirmed as they head into the final turn. Three quarters goes in 1:09.4. Secretariat moves four wide mid-way through the turn and launches a bold bid for the front, collaring Count Fleet just inside the quarter pole and drawing away to win by 8 lengths. The mile goes in 1:34 flat and the final time in 1:57.3. War Admiral and Citation, never far back, pass a tiring Affirmed and Count Fleet in the stretch to finish 2nd and 3rd. They are followed by Gallant Fox, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Whirlaway, Omaha, Assault and Sir Barton.

[YT="TC Winner Fantasy Race"]eDCpoOiVu-Q[/YT]

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by Steve R

Apropos of this thread, here is a fantasy race involving all 11 TC winners.

Secretariat (#7, the 5-2 favorite in the orange silks) is 7th early with Count Fleet on the lead followed by War Admiral, Sir Barton and Affirmed. Into the first turn Count Fleet opens up by 2 1/2 with Affirmed moving into second and War Admiral holding 3rd. Affirmed draws to within a half length of the lead after a half in :46 flat. Secretariat comes off the rail on the backstretch and Count Fleet opens up a bit on a Affirmed as they head into the final turn. Three quarters goes in 1:09.4. Secretariat moves four wide mid-way through the turn and launches a bold bid for the front, collaring Count Fleet just inside the quarter pole and drawing away to win by 8 lengths. The mile goes in 1:34 flat and the final time in 1:57.3. War Admiral and Citation, never far back, pass a tiring Affirmed and Count Fleet in the stretch to finish 2nd and 3rd. They are followed by Gallant Fox, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, Whirlaway, Omaha, Assault and Sir Barton.

I have a hard time believing Seattle Slew's name never gets mentioned in this fantasy race. He was a work horse. While I believe Sec could certainly win by 8 (he always had an easy win in him when he wanted to regardless of competition), I can't see SS taking sixth. Third maybe.

[GatetoWire]

Are you kidding??? By far the greatest horse ever.

Look at the times in the Derby

1:59 2/5 is still the track record!!!
The successive quarter-mile times were 25 1/5, 24, 23 4/5, 23 2/5, and 23

In the Belmont his 1 1/2 mile time was 2:24.....do you realize that no other horse has ever even broken 2:25 for a 1 1/2 miles.

In that race he ran 23 3/5, 46 1/5, and 1:09 4/5.....That's 3/4's in 1:09 4/5 and he still had enough in the tank to go 2:24 for the 1 1/2 mile.

In fact he is the best horse of all time by such a wide margin that there isn't even another horse on that top shelf with him.

Oh and by the way this was 1973.....how fast would he be today with modern medicine on his side.

[tucker6]

Originally Posted by GatetoWire

Are you kidding??? By far the greatest horse ever.

In fact he is the best horse of all time by such a wide margin that there isn't even another horse on that top shelf with him.

Oh and by the way this was 1973.....how fast would he be today with modern medicine on his side.

A better question is, "how slow would he be today with modern training in his corner"?? I'm thinking a 2:28 Belmont with pats on the back to each of the connections.

[Pell Mell]

Originally Posted by Bruddah

He was the best Race horse but not the best Stud/Sire. As it has been said "he left it all on the race track".

I don't know how much you think you know about breeding as I saw your post about Uncle Mo and I was wondering what pedigree you had been reading.

Some great horses are able to pass on their genes directly and others do it through the females.

Sec was a great broodmare sire which means he didn't leave it on the track.