Illinois - save the pensions!

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

Just so this point is clear as can be - in 1993 Christie Whitman, a Republican, did what Republicans do. She said if elected as NJ's governor, she would cut NJ state taxes by 30%. Whitman won and the state lost.

She pretended she could afford to cut state taxes by not funding the state employee pension plan. Other NJ governors followed Whitman's lead and today "the pension fund is in the crapper".

People like solid citizen Tom say tough shit for any state employee stuck in this irresponsible mess. Not his problem, says Tommy Boy.

I pity the poor SOB that gets Tommy in his foxhole.

I wouldn't be surprised that retired state employees who didn't contribute to SS and have their state pension go belly up, are able to apply and get SS benefits. Of course, those are going to be much less than "promised" as well, either through reductions or hyper-inflation, or both. Your SSN may not even be enough to check out a book from the library in 20 years.

Pensions are the canary in the coal mine. Next up, IRAs and 401Ks, then SS. We've all been gamed by spineless politicians playing the game of kick the can, and trying to avert disaster on their watch. And we know who to blame for spineless politicians....

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

Well, we're talking about a situation in which the parties involved in creating the "agreements" knew full well they were soaking the system, and that the rates of return were unsustainable. And to rub salt in the eyes of privately employed taxpayers, they even had the gall to "guarantee" their benefits by amending the state constitution.

Since fraud was part of the original plans, it's my opinion that reducing or eliminating the benefits is an entirely lawful outcome.

I won't argue that there are workers who never fully understood the criminal aspect of it all, but I would argue that they have not legally "earned" anything.

You're absolutely correct to point out the parallels of private pension funds and Social Security. Benefit reductions and/or eliminations are on tap for all of us, IMHO, as the economy won't be able to support the enormous amount of debt, directly and indirectly obligated.

Good and fair comments, all.

Pensions from "the good old days" - both public and private - are such an issue these days. As someone brought up in this thread, (essentially) how can the current generation bear the weight of past generations' support?

And yet, someone should. If not them, who?

But, sure. It needs to be someone else.

Maybe we should call it "NIMFY:" "Not in my FRONT yard."

Wrong is wrong.

[JustRalph]

I’ve posted this before, but it’s a good read on the topic.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/slashed...tland-workers/

Only going to get worse

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Good and fair comments, all.

Pensions from "the good old days" - both public and private - are such an issue these days. As someone brought up in this thread, (essentially) how can the current generation bear the weight of past generations' support?

And yet, someone should. If not them, who?

But, sure. It needs to be someone else.

Maybe we should call it "NIMFY:" "Not in my FRONT yard."

Wrong is wrong.

I guess I'm of the attitude that younger workers shouldn't have to be penalized for the insane greed of the Boomers (and I'm one of those). They're already being screwed over in terms of the economy, job opportunities, the fraud of student loans that can't be discharged, environmental damage, huge government debt, endless wars, health care fraud, drug dependency, growth of a fascist and surveillance state, ....well, you get the picture.

So, I'd disagree that the pensions SHOULD be supported, and maybe look at other means (expanding SS?) as a way to keep old folks off the street. Bad behavior (fraudulent pension SCHEMES) shouldn't be rewarded, and ignorant participants will just be collateral damage. The numbers don't work. Bad debt, including unsustainable pensions, will eventually have to be flushed.

So, the day I get placed on an iceberg and shoved out to sea (Eskimo style) because I'm no longer productive, or the day I'm skewered and put on a barbecue spit for a Millenial cookout, the little voice in my head will be whispering, "you had it coming, pal..."

[JustRalph]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

I guess I'm of the attitude that younger workers shouldn't have to be penalized for the insane greed of the Boomers (and I'm one of those). They're already being screwed over in terms of the economy, job opportunities, the fraud of student loans that can't be discharged, environmental damage, huge government debt, endless wars, health care fraud, drug dependency, growth of a fascist and surveillance state, ....well, you get the picture.

Now that made me laugh.......RIGHT! There getting screwed over? Laughable.......

[Dave Schwartz]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

I guess I'm of the attitude that younger workers shouldn't have to be penalized for the insane greed of the Boomers (and I'm one of those). They're already being screwed over in terms of the economy, job opportunities, the fraud of student loans that can't be discharged, environmental damage, huge government debt, endless wars, health care fraud, drug dependency, growth of a fascist and surveillance state, ....well, you get the picture.

So, I'd disagree that the pensions SHOULD be supported, and maybe look at other means (expanding SS?) as a way to keep old folks off the street. Bad behavior (fraudulent pension SCHEMES) shouldn't be rewarded, and ignorant participants will just be collateral damage. The numbers don't work. Bad debt, including unsustainable pensions, will eventually have to be flushed.

So, the day I get placed on an iceberg and shoved out to sea (Eskimo style) because I'm no longer productive, or the day I'm skewered and put on a barbecue spit for a Millenial cookout, the little voice in my head will be whispering, "you had it coming, pal..."

Just curious... Would you call yourself financially secure?

[Tom]

I'll mention two things. The system was developed by the state and anybody who wanted to work for the state paid into a pension plan but not SS. The workers are not to blame for that. They were given no choices. Workers and the state made a deal. Who is breaking the deal?

The government is breaking it. But shifting the burden to make it up to taxpayers who do not have pensions is not acceptable. They have no choice in the matter either. Workers and the state made a deal. No one else should be involved in the process.

[JustRalph]

Apparently Rush mentioned this on his show today.....I didn’t hear it.....but it’s on his website

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2...-pensions/amp/

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Boris

Step 1: Reduce any state pension payment by 75% if mailed out of state, and/or to an in state address not owned and homesteaded by the pension recipient.

Step 2: Budget balanced.

If you want the full benefit of your state pension, the state should be allowed the full economic benefit of the payment.

Dumbest post of the millennium. That worker earned that full pension. Why should it matter where he collects it?

Step two is also wrong because Republicans would not use the money saved to balance the budget. They would use it to cut their taxes.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by Tom

The government is breaking it. But shifting the burden to make it up to taxpayers who do not have pensions is not acceptable. They have no choice in the matter either. Workers and the state made a deal. No one else should be involved in the process.

If you don't have a pension then you are stupid. If you opposed unions which fought for pensions and minimum wage then you are stupid. If you supported politicians who destroyed unions and cut taxes to the point that pensions were not sustainable then you are stupid.

If you did not do these things then you are not stupid. Oh, nevermind.

[mostpost]

Originally Posted by NJ Stinks

Just so this point is clear as can be - in 1993 Christie Whitman, a Republican, did what Republicans do. She said if elected as NJ's governor, she would cut NJ state taxes by 30%. Whitman won and the state lost.

She pretended she could afford to cut state taxes by not funding the state employee pension plan. Other NJ governors followed Whitman's lead and today "the pension fund is in the crapper".

People like solid citizen Tom say tough shit for any state employee stuck in this irresponsible mess. Not his problem, says Tommy Boy.

I pity the poor SOB that gets Tommy in his foxhole.

You were a government worker as was I. Typically, how long did it take you to do as much work as Tom does in a week. I'm thinking by sometime Tuesday morning-early Tuesday morning.

[Tom]

You would would have died from a heart attack if you had ever tried to keep up with me at work.

Or died from bitching and whining about the hours, the travel, having to show respect to customers even when they were wrong.

You would have commited suicide, boy.
I would have taken your rounds for a vacation day.
But probably gotten bored about, oh, an hour into it.

Besides, in my line of work, we had to wear big boy pants.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

Just curious... Would you call yourself financially secure?

By most measures of the financial "experts", yes. But I don't believe a collapse of the dollar, bank holidays, or government confiscation of retirement accounts won't be distinct possibilities in the future.

Unlike Just Ralph, who may very well represent the average demographic at PA, I think Boomers are vastly underestimating the growing groundswell of contempt for their elders, motivated mostly by a lack of opportunity. The success Bernie Sanders had in his campaign, IMHO, was unthinkable 30 years ago. But that happens when the middle class has been eroded over the last 40 years, in spite of what the government tells you. The reality is many have degrees that are useless, six figures of student loan debt, and they live in their parent's basement while waiting tables three days a week.

Many of us who are older were able to grow up with far less propaganda, good work ethics, and elders who experienced the Great Depression, and knew what a tough row to hoe life can be. We were able to get college degrees with little or no debt, and get decent paying jobs with little effort as the computer industry and other technologies took off. Today, the youngsters are exposed to a constant inundation of consume, consume, consume, and a moral base built on the writings of Ayn Rand. We're living in an age, as Jim Kuntsler describes, "where everything goes and nothing matters", as democracy and free-markets have been replaced by kleptocracy and crony capitalism.

The signs of decline are all around, if you care to open your eyes.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Parkview_Pirate

By most measures of the financial "experts", yes. But I don't believe a collapse of the dollar, bank holidays, or government confiscation of retirement accounts won't be distinct possibilities in the future.

Unlike Just Ralph, who may very well represent the average demographic at PA, I think Boomers are vastly underestimating the growing groundswell of contempt for their elders, motivated mostly by a lack of opportunity. The success Bernie Sanders had in his campaign, IMHO, was unthinkable 30 years ago. But that happens when the middle class has been eroded over the last 40 years, in spite of what the government tells you. The reality is many have degrees that are useless, six figures of student loan debt, and they live in their parent's basement while waiting tables three days a week.

Many of us who are older were able to grow up with far less propaganda, good work ethics, and elders who experienced the Great Depression, and knew what a tough row to hoe life can be. We were able to get college degrees with little or no debt, and get decent paying jobs with little effort as the computer industry and other technologies took off. Today, the youngsters are exposed to a constant inundation of consume, consume, consume, and a moral base built on the writings of Ayn Rand. We're living in an age, as Jim Kuntsler describes, "where everything goes and nothing matters", as democracy and free-markets have been replaced by kleptocracy and crony capitalism.

The signs of decline are all around, if you care to open your eyes.

I would bet my bottom dollar that 99% of today's youngsters don't even know who Ayn Rand was.

[Parkview_Pirate]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I would bet my bottom dollar that 99% of today's youngsters don't even know who Ayn Rand was.

The youngsters may not, but the purveyors of the propaganda certainly do. Just reading Tom's and Mostpost's replies give you an indication of the undercurrent of her work - "I got mine, screw you!", or "I got mine, you're stupid!" That attitude might not play out so well in the next decade or so.

The retirement financial systems, like many other aspects of our economy, are unsustainable, and it seems IMHO rather foolish to believe that regardless of your age or your financial "stability", you won't be affected by the fallout. It may not be Mad Max, but it's not going to be the Jetsons either. The kids are stressed, and when you've got nothing to lose, well we know how that can turn out.

https://www.theladders.com/career-ad...der-colleagues

Why do millennials feel so stressed out? Increasingly insecure job prospects and overwhelming workloads, MHF believes.

“Millennials are more likely to have insecure contracts, low rates of pay and high entry-level workloads. The pressures they face in today’s employment market are very different to past generations,” MHF’s Richard Grange said.

For those who remember the 1960s and the Vietnam war protests, you'll soon be seeing history rhyme in a different sort of way.