Religion III

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

This may indeed be the understanding of the gullible...but I remain unconvinced. To me it seems that the "human writer" has let his imagination run wild. Like that bit written by Isaiah where God supposedly states that all good things will come to Israel...peace and splendor will shower the Israeli land...and all the world's nations will either bow down to Israel, or they will perish. Wait...let me do a google search on that passage just in case Boxcar later asks me to. Ahh...here it is:

https://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/B...le/ISA+60.html

All good things will come to Israel, and God says he will do this "swiftly"...and yet...Israel hasn't known a day of "peace" ever since.

Here is an interpretation...
http://cojs.org/parshat-ki-tavo-isai...yocheved-levy/

by Dr. Bryna Levy...
https://torahinmotion.org/profile/dr-bryna-j-levy

Notice the emphasis on personal responsibility, especially to bring about "Hastening the Redemption".
Israel will return from exile to the promises of Isaiah 60, and indeed the Temple was rebuilt and a recommitment to YHWH occurred throughout the narrative of Ezra, Nehemiah, through the Maccabean Revolt, up until Herod The Great.

From a Christian perspective, the Law of Moses was given so that man would seek the grace to keep it. Man cannot exhibit "agape" love, cannot reconcile himself to God without the grace won by Christ. The Hebrew scriptures are promise, Israel is a type of the new Israel, comprising "Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Heb 12:22).

You may entertain other viewpoints regarding "dispensationalism"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
...but this is largely a johnny-come-lately reinterpretation of historic Christianity.

[dnlgfnk]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Just in case you are thinking of telling me that this "prophecy" will materialize some time in the future...kindly note that line #6 tells the Israelis that "Herds of camels will cover your land". And the "herds of camels" are no longer the symbol of prosperity that they once were. Of course...it might be that these herds of camels are due for a comeback.

Interestingly in v.6, the "gold and frankincense" brought by gentiles ("The nations shall come to your light", v.3) only occurs again in Matthew 2:11, when gentiles visit the Christ.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by porchy44

Exactly.

My Minister brother has a Baptist moment when he believes Jesus turned water into juice NOT wine. he masks his personal biases as "revealed by the Holy Spirit".

Fundamentalists believe anyone asking for a proper interpretation will receive one from God—and that is exactly how most Fundamentalists understand the assistance of the Holy Spirit to work.

One thing I have learned with conversations with my brother is he would rather be wrong than be in agreement with Catholic teaching.

How is one to know which interpretations are correct? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that attests to its inspiration, is the authority established by Christ to interpret his word.

Scripture is self-interpretative. One or more parts of scripture can often help us understand another text that is before us.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by dnlgfnk

Here is an interpretation...
http://cojs.org/parshat-ki-tavo-isai...yocheved-levy/

by Dr. Bryna Levy...
https://torahinmotion.org/profile/dr-bryna-j-levy

Notice the emphasis on personal responsibility, especially to bring about "Hastening the Redemption".
Israel will return from exile to the promises of Isaiah 60, and indeed the Temple was rebuilt and a recommitment to YHWH occurred throughout the narrative of Ezra, Nehemiah, through the Maccabean Revolt, up until Herod The Great.

From a Christian perspective, the Law of Moses was given so that man would seek the grace to keep it. Man cannot exhibit "agape" love, cannot reconcile himself to God without the grace won by Christ. The Hebrew scriptures are promise, Israel is a type of the new Israel, comprising "Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Heb 12:22).

You may entertain other viewpoints regarding "dispensationalism"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
...but this is largely a johnny-come-lately reinterpretation of historic Christianity.

I have a different take of chapter 60. The thrust of the chapter is messianic in nature. The larger context of chapter bears this out. The strong messianic flavor begins in 59:16-21. For example, "My Spirit who is on you and my words that I have put in your mouth..." (v.21) is addressing the Messiah. (Don't forget that during Jesus' first advent he only spoke what he heard from the Father!) Chapter 60 continues with this theme. For example, "the nations will come to your light" is not speaking of Israel but of the Messiah. He is the Light of the World.

Verse 4 then starts speaking about the [gentile] nations that would be drawn to the light (see Isa 49:6). From v.11, we can find very similar language in Revelation 21 which deals with the consummated eternal, physical kingdom when heaven and earth will be totally restored to its former pristine, holy, paradisiacal condition. In this eternal kingdom, there will be no more sun, no more moon, gates will always be open, no violence in the land etc. Lots of parallels between Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21.

As an interesting aside the word translated "land" (in 60:18 for example) could just as well been translated "earth". And Rom 4:13 tells us that Abraham and his offspring will ultimately be heir of the entire world! Of course, this occurs at the end of the age when Jesus creates the New Heavens and New Earth upon his return.

As far as the language of "camels" and so forth in chapter 60, we must remember the prophet's original audience, and understand the passage the way the ancient Israelites would have. "Herds of camels" were a sign of wealth and prosperity (see Job for example!), so all Isaiah was telling the ancient Hebrews is that a time is coming when the whole land (earth) will be prosperous.

Another thing to remember about prophecy is oftentimes a prophet was given revelation that spanned numerous centuries. While the first coming of Jesus could have been alluded to in places in chapter 60, the prophet also was told things that would occur during the 2nd advent. Prophets often "saw" the mountain peaks of periods of history but not the valleys below that connected those periods.

And finally, we should keep in mind that Israel was a type of Christ -- in a very similar manner that Adam was a type of Christ. In both cases they are types by contrast, since Israel broke its covenant with God and never fulfilled its mission, whereas Jesus fulfilled it perfectly.

[boxcar]

If Jesus Gave A Sermon About COVID, What Would It ACTUALLY Look Like?

For a world so indifferent to Jesus’ call to repentance of sin there sure are a lot of opinions about what Jesus would tell Christians to do in response to that pandemic from Wuhan.

But how many of those opinions are in line with the Jesus we actually met in the gospels?

https://clashdaily.com/2022/01/if-je...lly-look-like/

[TJDave]

Christopher Hitchens takes the Roman Catholic Church to task:

YouTube (Short URL)

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Christopher Hitchens takes the Roman Catholic Church to task:
https://youtu.be/cRsaxXrjk3w

The voice of Christopher Hitchens has been silenced...while the vile Roman Catholic Church remains in a position of power and influence. What a farce our world is...and always has been.

[myohmyjustify]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The voice of Christopher Hitchens has been silenced...while the vile Roman Catholic Church remains in a position of power and influence. What a farce our world is...and always has been.

With all due respect, thaskalos, I think you're giving the Catholic Church way too much credit. IMO, the flock has been leaving the Catholic Church in droves for many, many years now.

The Church uses the sex scandals of recent decades as the reason for attendance at mass and money contributions dropping. That's their default answer. I don't downplay that but Catholics have been fed up with Rome and their local Bishops on many issues. And now, we have someone like Pope Francis who is accelerating this.

Sorry for being OT so I'll end this by saying that Christopher Hitchens was the most intelligent and most clear thinking person on culture, politics, etc., I've ever followed. He was even responsible for me reading P.G. Wodehouse, fwit.

[TJDave]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Christopher Hitchens takes the Roman Catholic Church to task:
https://youtu.be/cRsaxXrjk3w

Round 2:

Stephen Fry…

YouTube (Short URL)

[boxcar]

Okay, Richie, let's see if I can pull a Reader's Digest and get this reply condensed down to just several paragraphs. Eschatology (a branch of theology that deals with the study of end times) is a tough subject because it involves what has gone before, which is happening now and what will likely happen in the future. So, I'll try to distill this down to just a handful of fundamentally important teachings that have direct bearing on this subject. But first, here are the questions that were tossed out on the other thread:

Originally Posted by davew

What do they gain by turning the country into a cesspool? and how many of them get this reward?

Originally Posted by davew

Why? does that make them FEEL wanted, important, powerful?

Originally Posted by TJDave

Why would it be to anyone’s advantage to turn our country into a third-world shithole?

And who are they?

I. Mankind is Fallen

What the bible means by this is that our first parents rebelled against God, chose to not believe Him and instead desired to be like Him. Subsequently, our parents inherited a sin nature for their trouble and passed that nature down to all their progeny -- you, me and everyone else on the planet. While each of us is not as evil as we could be, nonetheless the resulting corruption due to sin affects all our faculties: mind, will, emotions and conscience which find their seat in man's heart. Because all our faculties have been impacted, we come into this world as natural-born enemies of God. The natural inclination of our hearts is to do what is right in our own eyes, to become a law unto ourselves, each of us establishing himself as a final authority. Scripture tells us that the thoughts and intentions of our heart are evil continually (Gen 6:5).

II The Main Reason Sin is so Pernicious to our Souls

Sin deceives us (Heb 3:13; Rom 7:11) thereby altering all our thought processes. This is why we exhibit irrational behavior. The vast majority of believe that we can find happiness, fulfillment and purpose in life by doing what we think will bring us pleasure. Yet, in seeking this pleasure we most often engage in self-destructive behavior on both a micro and macro level. We do things that we know are harmful to us or even others. We smoke, we do illegal drugs, drink too much, we engage in illicit sex, etc., etc. And governments (on the macro level) engage in self-destructive policies for their people. This is why there are so many socialist-leaning and tyrranical countries in this world, as one example. It's no wonder the prophet said that " the heart of man is deceitful above all else, and desperately wicked" (Jer 17:9).

III. The Kingdoms of this World

When Christ came to accomplish his Father's salvific purposes for mankind by his death, burial and resurrection, His Father give his Son a kingdom -- known in scripture as the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven (Dan 2:44-45). And Christ currently rules the nations from his throne in heaven. (He is the "rock" cut out of stone but not by human hands that crushes all the kingdoms mentioned in this chapter) But Satan also has a kingdom -- the kingdom of darkness (Col 1:13; 1Pet 2:9). And scripture tells us that the whole world lies in the power of the devil (1 Jn 5:19). Satan and his minions greatly influence all that is going on in the world today. Godless men and women gladly and willfully follow the evil one's lead; for the entire world is at enmity with God just as the devil is. Of course, since most of us want nothing to do with the Kingdom of God (which is the spiritual rule of Christ in our hearts), and nature abhors a vacuum, then it's only natural that mankind tries to establish its world empire. And there's plenty of precedent for this desire for world dominion since history tells us that there were major empires from the time of the Egyptians to the Fall of Rome: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Mede-Perisan, Greece and Rome. The concept of one world rule has been bandied about for many decades even before Bush Sr.s talk of "new world order" and long before Obama's desire to "fundamentally transform the face of America" or more recently Klaus Schwab's talk of the Great Reset, etc.

IV. Why Many Desire the Decline of the U.S.

In a word: INFLUENCE. In order for the rest of the world powers to succeed in the global takeover of the planet, the U.S. must be brought into line with the globalist agenda. The U.S. is unique in this world -- being a constitutional republic that has championed the rights of The People by strictly limiting the powers of the federal government. But the warp 'n' woof of Globalism is a strong centralized government, whereas the U.S. was purposely founded on the principles of decentralized government and states' rights. So, what many rich and powerful people in the world want to do is change that; but of course, it would never be done by the long, tedious super majority amendment process. Instead, they will try to do as much damage as possible by EO or the statutory process whereby there would be a significant change in culture. One of the big obstacles here in the U.S. to globalism is a thriving middle class. Since human government is going to try to usurp God's authority as sovereign ruler, then the government must try to get as many people as possible to depend upon them -- to rely on them for even our basic needs. The powers to be must get the U.S. into a weakened position whereby our influence in the world is greatly diminished. We must become more like the run-of-the-mill, mediocre socialist countries in the world. And, of course, all this happens at the expense of The People, not at the expense of the elitist, expert class. It's The People who must be subdued so that we will simply acquiesce to a centralized, authoritarian government. The elitist must get this nation to cease being the model and beacon for freedom that it has been for over 200 years. We simply must become one of the "also rans" in the race.

But the middle, economic class isn't the only obstacle to globalism. The other big enemy of the state are those who hold to traditional moral values as well -- most especially biblical values. This is why we're seeing such a push for CRT in schools, the sexualizing of our children in school, the celebration and approval of all manner of sexual perversion, the claim that there is a racist behind almost every tree in America, etc., etc. This big push for cultural change is designed to drive a wedge between people. The libs know the best way to win the culture war is to divide and conquer. Even Jesus said that "if a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand" (Mk 3:24).

Little does the world know, however, that at the end of the day "those who despise God's Word bring destruction on themselves; but he who reveres the commandment will be awarded" (Prov 13:13).

[Richie]

thanks Boxcar, really appreciate the response

[boxcar]

25 Federal Agencies Tracking Employees With Religious Exemption Requests

https://www.theepochtimes.com/at-lea...qHZzKtjMMfI%3D

An inquiring mind is dying to know WHY! What do they plan to do with the data?

[Light]

Originally Posted by TJDave

Christopher Hitchens takes the Roman Catholic Church to task:
https://youtu.be/cRsaxXrjk3w

Religion has nothing to do with God. Religion is an invention of man. All the atrocities Hitchens claims as a result of the church are true but it needs to be kept separate from God even if the atrocities were committed in the name of God.Because God would not condone such acts.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by Light

Religion has nothing to do with God. Religion is an invention of man. All the atrocities Hitchens claims as a result of the church are true but it needs to be kept separate from God even if the atrocities were committed in the name of God.Because God would not condone such acts.

A half truth at best! While it is true that fallen man has"invented" all manner of religion through the ages, this begs the question. Why is man so religious? Sinful mankind created their own gods, and these gods needed to be worshiped and appeased. But this even begs the question; for why has man, throughout all these centuries, felt compelled to create their own gods? Scripture tells us why man is such a "religious" creature.

First, God has set eternity in man's heart (Eccl 3:11). Therefore, mortal man intuitively knows that he's not alone in this universe -- that there is something much bigger than us out there and that this life is not all that there is.

Secondly, as beings created in the image of God, we are moral beings just like our Creator. While the written Law of God was given only to Israel through Moses, the "ten commandments" are also written on all men's hearts (Rom 2:14-16), our consciences either accusing us or defending us.

But in addition to the moral code of the Law, God meticulously prescribed how he was to be worshiped through the ceremonial-ritualistic aspect of the Law -- down to every last minute detail, including how the temple was to be constructed, how large it was to be, how many rooms it was to have, the color and embroidery of the curtains, what pieces of furniture were to be included, the placement of the furniture, priesthood requirements, etc., etc. The divine genius behind all this is that the Law typified Christ. It foreshadowded Him (Col 2:16-17; Heb 8:5; 10:1). This is one of the primary reasons behind the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 A.D. After Christ instituted and ratified the New Covenant in his own blood, all that typified Him, under the Old Covenant, in Jewish ritual was no longer needed.

Finally, while the warp 'n' woof of New Covenant Christianity is to restore fallen man's relationship with God, this doesn't mean that God hasn't prescribed how he wants to be worshiped during this Church age. Jesus made this crystal clear to the Samaritan woman at the well:

John 4:21-24
21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers MUST worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH ."
NIV

In v. 21, Jesus was alluding to the eventual destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. This is why he told the woman that a time was coming when she would no longer worship in the Land. In fact, in v. 23, he even goes farther by essentially saying that "the time has [already] come for such worship since Christ, who personified the Kingdom of God, was already in her midst (vv. 10-14). Therefore, like all Truth finds its ultimate source in Christ, true religion, likewise, finds its source in Him, as well. This religion must be practiced in the context of God's Truth and in the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Light]

There is a huge disconnect in what you say.

First you reintroduce religion to God which as I say has nothing to do with God, and in fact is a barrier to communion with God.

Second you cannot worship anyone you don't love. You cannot pretend to love God by pretending to do so in order to show off or buy your way into Heaven. That's why there are a lot of clergy in Hell in "Dante's Inferno". God isn't stupid.

Third in order to worship God, you must get to know him. You don't know anyone until you meet them personally. One cannot get to know God personally through religion because God is put on a pedestal that one cannot reach.

Once one gets to know God within, the love for God is naturally off the charts. Worship is not an issue at that point. Worship is a natural offspring of exponential love.

Contrast that with someone being forced or acquiesced to worship a figurehead of a religion because they have to because they are threatened with eternal torture if they don't is like night and day.