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Old 11-20-2014, 11:41 AM   #1
Grits
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Ms. Moss' latest closing argument

All those cheating are employed by others, while this argument refers to a three year old positive belonging to Tom Amoss?

A response by Indiana Horse Racing Commission director.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ra...ss-commentary/

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Finally, Ms. Moss has opined about testing levels. She sets her sights on racing laboratories testing for drugs at picogram per milliliter concentrations. As stated in her commentary “The media also should ask what our labs are doing to test as they never have before and trying to measure amounts that are simply immeasurable.” She goes on to add – “The immeasurable amounts, by all scientific data, could not ever remotely affect the performance of the horse.”

This is simply untrue.

According to Richard Sams, PhD, Director of the LGC Science Inc. Laboratory in Lexington, Ky., such concentrations are measurable with modern instrumentation and are relevant for many drugs and medications. In fact, the availability of methodology that allows detection at picogram per milliliter concentrations allows testing of blood samples for these substances thereby improving the reliability of withdrawal time recommendations.
Ms.Moss' findings...

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...#disqus_thread

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The 70 plus overages/positives, and maybe more, just in 2014, have not been revealed by the regulators at Indiana Grand, which misleads the betting public and creates an aura of secrecy with the public and the media. This pattern of positives and closed-door deals has been taking place since August with secrecy and selective prosecution. The meet ended Nov. 1, and though information as to the veracity of all this will perhaps be released, it only looks like a "guised effort to get tough on drugs."
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Old 11-20-2014, 12:27 PM   #2
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she sounds like a lawyer
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Old 11-20-2014, 03:44 PM   #3
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Maybe someone can explain this in layman's terms. I know Amoss said something similar on tv, that very small overages of legal meds is much different than some of the other stuff going on and its not "cheating" per se.

My question to Maggie and Amoss would be this. Why not just use oats and hay and water? You won't ever have to worry about going over on ANY med if you don't use them.

Another question is about Indiana hiding information from the public about drug overages, isnt that breaking some kind of law?
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:09 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Stillriledup
Maybe someone can explain this in layman's terms. I know Amoss said something similar on tv, that very small overages of legal meds is much different than some of the other stuff going on and its not "cheating" per se.

My question to Maggie and Amoss would be this. Why not just use oats and hay and water? You won't ever have to worry about going over on ANY med if you don't use them.

Another question is about Indiana hiding information from the public about drug overages, isnt that breaking some kind of law?
Obviously because these drugs have proven positive effects, even in legal doses. Not using them when you're in a competition would be foolish. It'd be like if you and someone else had an infection. We do an experiment to see who gets better first, but the other person gets the proper antibiotic, in the proper dose, and you don't. Now, you'll probably get better, if you have a healthy immune system, but there's a very high probability the other person would recover first. That'd be the situation someone who gave absolutely no medications to their horse might be in competing against someone who did.
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Old 11-20-2014, 04:57 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by castaway01
Obviously because these drugs have proven positive effects, even in legal doses. Not using them when you're in a competition would be foolish. It'd be like if you and someone else had an infection. We do an experiment to see who gets better first, but the other person gets the proper antibiotic, in the proper dose, and you don't. Now, you'll probably get better, if you have a healthy immune system, but there's a very high probability the other person would recover first. That'd be the situation someone who gave absolutely no medications to their horse might be in competing against someone who did.
No doubt, good points, its "keep up with the Joneses" theory. Good analogy too.

I think though that if you use ANY meds and go over, you gotta take the hit and the blame. I totally understand what Maggie and Tom are saying about the differences between slight almost undetectable overages on legal meds vs the other drug offenses that might be either massive overages of legal meds or illegal stuff altogether and how one is really not cheating.....i would say to them good luck convincing bettors that you're not a cheater either way. Bettors know races are decided, quite often, by 100ths of seconds, any overages no matter how small could affect the race.
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:34 AM   #6
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Delaware used this lab for the first time this year. They still have over fifty samples that have not been returned yet. The stewards are gone. People don't have their money. There were sooooo many positives this year it's crazy. Including one for the second place finish of Princess of Sylmar in the Delaware Handicap. Mostly tiny overages of therapeutics. All the splits came back different. MUCH different. Clearly this is an imperfect science and the smaller they test, the more apparent these human errors become.
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:44 AM   #7
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Don't trace amounts result from larger amounts?
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:33 AM   #8
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Smile drugs are drugs

it's almost like can we give this drug and still go undetected..(push the
envelope) It's why I quit betting...nobody will notice that I am gone but
I only know I sleep better now...much more rested than trying to bottle the smoke in horse racing.

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Old 11-23-2014, 09:47 AM   #9
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for this sport to survive it absolutely needs a national drug policy with standardized national testing. national rules regarding positives, etc. I just cannot fathom why this hasn't happened yet.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:34 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by chadk66
for this sport to survive it absolutely needs a national drug policy with standardized national testing. national rules regarding positives, etc. I just cannot fathom why this hasn't happened yet.

This is spot on !

It has not happened because the industry has no commissioner. This is needed to keep each state, each owner, and each states politicians from doing what THEY feel is correct for themselves instead of what is correct for the industry.

The industry, while it includes all the workers at every track, be it for stables or management, only survives if bettors bet. But because the track owners as well as state officials only care about THEIR state or track, they cannot even decide when and where to meet to discuss this problem much less address the problem. And unfortunately, the bettors are taken for granted, which is a terrible injustice.

Until they implement national standards and have one face, like a commissioner, that represents the industry as a whole, the antiquated decisions that race track gamblers are so used to, will continue.

Having worked in the business for 27 years and served on multiple horseman's committees that worked through many topics, including bute and lasix back in the 70's, I can tell you that nothing is more frustrating than trying to do something reasonable in terms of helping the fan/bettor. It is simply incredible in such a negative way. It's like the mindset is stuck in the 60's. And it's like that because it is.

As for the picogram, it represents one trillionth of a gram, and without it, testing would be lost. It's not the trillionth of a gram that is the big deal, it's the story that it tells about what was administered, by whom, and when. It is sorely needed but any reasonable committee could have guide lines for these. That is, if the ownership allowed it. Unreal !

And as for trainers taking shots, it is usually quite obvious to other trainers and or horseman that have lived the game for years as to what is going on depending on the positive. Vet records are quite detailed and written out daily. It's not very tough to know who is trying to cheat and who is not. Most of the trainers knew who was honest and who was not within their group from circuit to circuit. I certainly did.
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruffian1
This is spot on !

It has not happened because the industry has no commissioner. This is needed to keep each state, each owner, and each states politicians from doing what THEY feel is correct for themselves instead of what is correct for the industry.

The industry, while it includes all the workers at every track, be it for stables or management, only survives if bettors bet. But because the track owners as well as state officials only care about THEIR state or track, they cannot even decide when and where to meet to discuss this problem much less address the problem. And unfortunately, the bettors are taken for granted, which is a terrible injustice.

Until they implement national standards and have one face, like a commissioner, that represents the industry as a whole, the antiquated decisions that race track gamblers are so used to, will continue.

Having worked in the business for 27 years and served on multiple horseman's committees that worked through many topics, including bute and lasix back in the 70's, I can tell you that nothing is more frustrating than trying to do something reasonable in terms of helping the fan/bettor. It is simply incredible in such a negative way. It's like the mindset is stuck in the 60's. And it's like that because it is.

As for the picogram, it represents one trillionth of a gram, and without it, testing would be lost. It's not the trillionth of a gram that is the big deal, it's the story that it tells about what was administered, by whom, and when. It is sorely needed but any reasonable committee could have guide lines for these. That is, if the ownership allowed it. Unreal !

And as for trainers taking shots, it is usually quite obvious to other trainers and or horseman that have lived the game for years as to what is going on depending on the positive. Vet records are quite detailed and written out daily. It's not very tough to know who is trying to cheat and who is not. Most of the trainers knew who was honest and who was not within their group from circuit to circuit. I certainly did.
It may make you feel better to know that this is already happening. Uniform medication rules are already in place in many states and others are in the process as changes have to go through the states legislative process. It even includes a multiple violation penalty system that increases punishment based on a point system.

As far as trace amounts being indicative of larger amounts and telling a story, of course. Almost 100 percent of medication violations are for common therapeutic drugs that a trainer may use in the normal course of horse care. The allowable levels are well below that which would effect the horse except for LASIX.
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:07 AM   #12
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Quote:
Having worked in the business for 27 years and served on multiple horseman's committees that worked through many topics, including bute and lasix back in the 70's, I can tell you that nothing is more frustrating than trying to do something reasonable in terms of helping the fan/bettor. It is simply incredible in such a negative way. It's like the mindset is stuck in the 60's. And it's like that because it is.

As for the picogram, it represents one trillionth of a gram, and without it, testing would be lost. It's not the trillionth of a gram that is the big deal, it's the story that it tells about what was administered, by whom, and when. It is sorely needed but any reasonable committee could have guide lines for these. That is, if the ownership allowed it. Unreal !
Thank you for writing. Bad to be stuck, still, in the 70s isn't it?

Your opinion of testing at picograms level differs from Ms.Moss. You seem more familiar with its ability. May I ask you?

Granted, Ms.Moss is an attorney, a horse owner, a vocal presence and proponent of all that is good for race horses. Still, she is not a scientist. She is not in a lab each day, she is not trained to conduct testing on animals. With this noted, why is she convinced that picogram testing is inscrutable? Her points lead one to believe this is unnecessary? This is clutter that takes scrutiny away from "real cheaters"? Why would the Blood Horse give her a platform that seems to negate the need for such testing? ... Thank you in advance. .... And welcome to Pace Advantage.
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Old 11-23-2014, 11:14 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by chadk66
for this sport to survive it absolutely needs a national drug policy with standardized national testing. national rules regarding positives, etc. I just cannot fathom why this hasn't happened yet.
The industry doesn't want that.
As long as we keep betting, they don't consider us customers, just suckers.
National anything means less local control.
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Old 11-23-2014, 12:00 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Delawaretrainer
It may make you feel better to know that this is already happening. Uniform medication rules are already in place in many states and others are in the process as changes have to go through the states legislative process. It even includes a multiple violation penalty system that increases punishment based on a point system.

As far as trace amounts being indicative of larger amounts and telling a story, of course. Almost 100 percent of medication violations are for common therapeutic drugs that a trainer may use in the normal course of horse care. The allowable levels are well below that which would effect the horse except for LASIX.
I am aware of progress in the medication dept. I guess my problem is that I ran out of patience after waiting 3 decades.Lol.

On a lighter note, are you indeed a Delaware trainer? As in Thoroughbreds?

I spent many a summer day at Del. Park between 1972 and 2001.
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Old 11-23-2014, 12:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Grits
Thank you for writing. Bad to be stuck, still, in the 70s isn't it?

Your opinion of testing at picograms level differs from Ms.Moss. You seem more familiar with its ability. May I ask you?

Granted, Ms.Moss is an attorney, a horse owner, a vocal presence and proponent of all that is good for race horses. Still, she is not a scientist. She is not in a lab each day, she is not trained to conduct testing on animals. With this noted, why is she convinced that picogram testing is inscrutable? Her points lead one to believe this is unnecessary? This is clutter that takes scrutiny away from "real cheaters"? Why would the Blood Horse give her a platform that seems to negate the need for such testing? ... Thank you in advance. .... And welcome to Pace Advantage.
Ms. Moss is doing a fine job of having a voice in a subject that has not had one for way too long. I applaud her for that.

My stance on picograms is simple. If the right people are put in place to monitor overages, levels of the degree , (depending on the drug), need to be acknowledged but not necessarily fined to the extent of losing the purse. It totally depends on the drug, the trainers previous history, the horses previous drug history( meaning most horses pass drugs at about the same rate, but just like people, a small % of them retain trace amounts for a longer period of time. It is not that hard to document each horses occurrence during it's lifetime of racing), the reason the drug was administered, WHO administered it ( that is huge), was it documented prior to the overage( also huge), and more but I am shooting from the hip here and not giving this full thought. It's just not as hard as people make it seem. But most answers have an agenda attached. THAT, is the problem.

Last edited by Ruffian1; 11-23-2014 at 12:13 PM.
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