Best American Horse Since 2000: And your Top 10

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

She's underrated because there's an entire segment of the horse racing community that will never accept what she accomplished, because of their prejudice against synthetic tracks. (The biggest aspect of this is the argument that her BC Classic win doesn't count or was cheap because it was on a synthetic track-- as if a female winning that race over that field coming from last is made easy just by changing the track surface.)

Prejudice: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Quit with the emotion-fueled language like prejudice and haters - that stuff isn't for adult discussion. People who don't like synthetic surfaces have very good reason for their dislike, one of which was the not-at-all-like-dirt-racing races that Zenyatta ran in. Unfortunately for you, Zenyatta can't be separated from that fact.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Prejudice: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Quit with the emotion-fueled language like prejudice and haters - that stuff isn't for adult discussion. People who don't like synthetic surfaces have very good reason for their dislike, one of which was the not-at-all-like-dirt-racing races that Zenyatta ran in. Unfortunately for you, Zenyatta can't be separated from that fact.

Non - prejudiced people CAN separate her. That's the point.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Non - prejudiced people CAN separate her. That's the point.

Racehorses aren't separated from their performances except in the Zenyatta-colored realm of your mind.

[iceknight]

Originally Posted by Rex Phinney

The question was posed solely to thebigguy. While I appreciate your post I was really just interested in his opinion.

FWIW Invasor tops my list since 2000 to run in the US. It's why I haven't posted a top 10 and it's why I posed this question to thebigguy.

I think this list is hard to construct leaving out Invasor and Goldi

Got it. I see your point. Invasor, of course, is definitely underrated for all his achievements. I check out his Equibase charts and he has stumbles, bobbles, or clips in several of his starts - where he ends up WINNING

[taxicab]

Originally Posted by Rex Phinney

I don't call him the most underrated horse of all time for nothing.

He won the last 6 races of his career:

All Grade 1
SIX different racetracks
4 of them going beyond nine furlongs
Dubai World Cup and BC Classic included

Won the Breeders Cup classic under an 18 YO jockey, and beat Bernardini

Won 11 of 12 lifetime starts, on THREE different continents, with 2 different trainers and 3 different jockeys.

His run in the Donn after being stopped near the quarter pole is for my money maybe a top 5 all time performance. No horse wins getting stopped like that.

And he was a Triple Crown winner....

[OntheRail]

Lots of fine horses mentioned I'll add Royal Delta... to the list.

[MargieRose]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

If surface preference is nothing more than training, then why for 20+ years have those trainers in Europe not trained their horses to win the BC Classic, DWC (on dirt, and going back to dirt), and other big dirt races? Probably because they don't respect the surface like 3/4 of the racing world doesn't...you know, the majority!

A very large part of racing is about breeding, and we've been breeding dirt horses (of whom quite a few have been sent overseas and have excelled in the breading shed for turf racing...Sunday Silence, anyone? As well, many of our own dirt horses are proven turf sires: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...ire-lists/turf) while Europe has been breeding turf horses. We breed and race the best dirt horses in the world. (We breed for speed; dirt is more conducive to bone-breaking speed.) Europe breeds and races the best turf horses in the world. (Europe breeds for stamina and distance; my preference, if I may have one.) Why is it not logical to you that the best and toughest races in America are on dirt? Just as it's logical that Europe's best and toughest races are on turf? (GREAT horses, which equals to great/tough racing, can, should and have excelled on both surfaces...Secretariat, Kelso, DR FAGER?) And isn't it logical that we're going to be bigger fans of the divisions that represent our best? So what makes you think there's something wrong with us liking and preferring our best? I don't think there is anything wrong with us liking and preferring our best. I just don't necessarily think our BEST only run on and should only be respected for having run on dirt to the extent that it is...ZENYATTA?!!!!

With respect to your namesake:

On September 1, in the United Nations Handicap at Atlantic City, Dr. Fager ran on the turf for the first and only time. Despite having never run on the grass, he was assigned 134 pounds -- giving 16 pounds to Fort Marcy (the grass champion from the previous year and, later, Horse of the Year) and Australian champion Tobin Bronze. Despite running on a surface of which he was unfamiliar and one that was wet and slick from rainfall, Dr. Fager fought head and head on the lead for the entire 1 3/16 mile distance, winning by a head over the solid grass performer, Advocator.

Dr. Fager was named Horse of the Year, champion sprinter, champion grass horse and champion older male -- the only horse in history to capture all four honors.

http://horseracing.about.com/library/bldrfager.htm

To reiterate: DIRT IS NOT the be-all, end-all of great racing, even in THIS COUNTRY, if one can simply dump the prejudice!!

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by MargieRose

With respect to your namesake:

On September 1, in the United Nations Handicap at Atlantic City, Dr. Fager ran on the turf for the first and only time. Despite having never run on the grass, he was assigned 134 pounds -- giving 16 pounds to Fort Marcy (the grass champion from the previous year and, later, Horse of the Year) and Australian champion Tobin Bronze. Despite running on a surface of which he was unfamiliar and one that was wet and slick from rainfall, Dr. Fager fought head and head on the lead for the entire 1 3/16 mile distance, winning by a head over the solid grass performer, Advocator.

Dr. Fager was named Horse of the Year, champion sprinter, champion grass horse and champion older male -- the only horse in history to capture all four honors.

http://horseracing.about.com/library/bldrfager.htm

To reiterate: DIRT IS NOT the be-all, end-all of great racing, even in THIS COUNTRY, if one can simply dump the prejudice!!

Another person who doesn't know how to debate a topic without the childish idea that someone is "prejudiced" if they don't agree with them.

I fully realize Fager won on turf. Not that it matters in this conversation.

Our best horses, best fields, and best races are on the dirt. That's what we breed, and that's where we excel, and we have the best dirt horses in the world. You can tell yourself that our turf horses are the best in the world but you'd just be lying to yourself. There's a reason why we usually get our ass handed to us in the BC turf races by Europeans, and why Europeans who don't cut it in Europe can come here and take our biggest races.

Dirt IS the be-all, end-all in American racing. Go raise your European flag elsewhere.

[mutualwagerer]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Another person who doesn't know how to debate a topic without the childish idea that someone is "prejudiced" if they don't agree with them.

I fully realize Fager won on turf. Not that it matters in this conversation.

Our best horses, best fields, and best races are on the dirt. That's what we breed, and that's where we excel, and we have the best dirt horses in the world. You can tell yourself that our turf horses are the best in the world but you'd just be lying to yourself. There's a reason why we usually get our ass handed to us in the BC turf races by Europeans, and why Europeans who don't cut it in Europe can come here and take our biggest races.

Dirt IS the be-all, end-all in American racing. Go raise your European flag elsewhere.

Sadly you are true turf racing just isn't popular in the US the way it is basically everywhere else in the World. Every time you see a European bred horse on the turf here and you are handicapping that horse almost automatically gets a +. Its just a given that America doesn't have turf racing at the same level as what dirt is. Can anyone name 5 big time turf races throughout the year in the states? Not to mention there is a reason why all the great turf sires are in Europe as opposed to here. The only great turf sire that comes to mind was sunday silence and the US wanted nothing to do with him.

[dilanesp]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Racehorses aren't separated from their performances except in the Zenyatta-colored realm of your mind.

Zenyatta' s BC Classic win was one of the greatest performances in American racing history by a female. I'm not the one separating her from that.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by dilanesp

Zenyatta' s BC Classic win was one of the greatest performances in American racing history by a female. I'm not the one separating her from that.

I beg to differ. I think her Classic runner-up was a far superior race by her.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by mutualwagerer

Sadly you are true turf racing just isn't popular in the US the way it is basically everywhere else in the World. Every time you see a European bred horse on the turf here and you are handicapping that horse almost automatically gets a +. Its just a given that America doesn't have turf racing at the same level as what dirt is. Can anyone name 5 big time turf races throughout the year in the states? Not to mention there is a reason why all the great turf sires are in Europe as opposed to here. The only great turf sire that comes to mind was sunday silence and the US wanted nothing to do with him.

No one would've thought SS would be a turf sire, though. The reason breeders didn't care for him was his pedigree and looks. As for current turf sires, Kitten's Joy and War Front are doing well. Interestingly, the former is doing better on the track and the latter is doing better in the sales ring. I wonder if War Front won't eventually make his home in Europe. Departing is his lone graded stakes winner on dirt, I think, and if he doesn't get some more dirt runners, his sales could start slipping here.

I don't find it sad that turf racing isn't as popular here. I like our dirt racing. We have it pretty good here, really, as we have dirt and turf racing. Europe only has turf (and synthetics at some of their lower-level tracks).

[MargieRose]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Another person who doesn't know how to debate a topic without the childish idea that someone is "prejudiced" if they don't agree with them.

I fully realize Fager won on turf. Not that it matters in this conversation.

Our best horses, best fields, and best races are on the dirt. That's what we breed, and that's where we excel, and we have the best dirt horses in the world. You can tell yourself that our turf horses are the best in the world but you'd just be lying to yourself. There's a reason why we usually get our ass handed to us in the BC turf races by Europeans, and why Europeans who don't cut it in Europe can come here and take our biggest races.

Dirt IS the be-all, end-all in American racing. Go raise your European flag elsewhere.

It is YOU sir/madam who is the child in this debate! Not only do you not understand my point/opinion, you put words into my mouth and then resort to insults while defending yours. I don't respect narrow-minded people...Am DONE with you!