How much is it worth to NOT have robotic wagerers in the pools?

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The horse-owners get their "thrills"...and their operating losses are tax-deductible. The horseplayers, on the other hand, pay a lot more for the "thrills" that they seek...because their gambling losses go unrecognized by the IRS. Consequently...it is even HARDER to justify becoming a serious horseplayer.

There are many horse owners who fall into the "hobby" classification and accordingly cannot write-off operating losses. I agree on your second point.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I thought about including them, but of them I'm less sure. With the trainers, I feel comfortable with that number being salary, after they've paid all their employees and business bills. For the jockeys, they have their agents to pay plus I don't know if they have rather large insurance payments or if they're getting most/all paid for by the tracks/owners. Obviously the guys at the top are doing very well, I just didn't know how far down the list we'd have to go.

I think they are generally sum the earnings of all a jockey's mounts for reports, but they don't always get 10% of that.

They get 10% of their winning mounts, but less than that downward.

They pay agents.

They belong to a union so they probably have to pay something into the union.

They may have to pay valets something.

They probably need nutritionists and physical therapists (if they can afford one).

It's never as much you think before all the costs of the career come into play, except at the very top.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

That requires selling of horses every X years. It doesn't require that you make a profit, only that you try to make a profit. Since some people do, at least in individual years, it has to be seen as viable. Again, though, it's from selling, not from purses that one would normally show a profit.

It's not only that you try, it's how you try. This issue has been litigated many times. There is no litmus test but there are many factors that are looked at. Some listed by the IRS:

The following factors, although not all inclusive, may help you to determine whether your activity is an activity engaged in for profit or a hobby:

Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?
Do you depend on income from the activity?
If there are losses, are they due to circumstances beyond your control or did they occur in the start-up phase of the business?
Have you changed methods of operation to improve profitability?
Do you have the knowledge needed to carry on the activity as a successful business?
Have you made a profit in similar activities in the past?
Does the activity make a profit in some years?
Do you expect to make a profit in the future from the appreciation of assets used in the activity?

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

The horse-owners get their "thrills"...and their operating losses are tax-deductible. The horseplayers, on the other hand, pay a lot more for the "thrills" that they seek...because their gambling losses go unrecognized by the IRS. Consequently...it is even HARDER to justify becoming a serious horseplayer.

The typical level of investment is part of the equation.

When you buy a single horse you have the up front investment and then the annual cost of training, vets, etc... A single 10K claimer is putting more at risk than most horse players bet in a year. Of course, there are horse players whose handle runs into 7 figures, but there are owners that spend that much on just 1 or 2 horses.

Would you rather your unsuccessful hobby be two 10K claimers and 100K of operating costs or 120K through the windows at the track?

The average horse player is going to lose take and breakage. I think the average owner is doing worse than that.

[classhandicapper]

Originally Posted by AndyC

It's not only that you try, it's how you try. This issue has been litigated many times. There is no litmus test but there are many factors that are looked at. Some listed by the IRS:

The following factors, although not all inclusive, may help you to determine whether your activity is an activity engaged in for profit or a hobby:

Does the time and effort put into the activity indicate an intention to make a profit?
Do you depend on income from the activity?
If there are losses, are they due to circumstances beyond your control or did they occur in the start-up phase of the business?
Have you changed methods of operation to improve profitability?
Do you have the knowledge needed to carry on the activity as a successful business?
Have you made a profit in similar activities in the past?
Does the activity make a profit in some years?
Do you expect to make a profit in the future from the appreciation of assets used in the activity?

How about stuff like this?

Do you go to Belmont at 6:30 in the morning to watch your horses work out?

Do you read the condition book every time it comes out and actively discuss where to run the horses with partners and the trainer?

Do you do private handicapping tasks to help spot your horses?

Do you make a special trip to Belmont to see your horse after a victory so you can personally feed it a treat?

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

IDK. Maybe they've led you to think they don't sell to rebate shops?

Ok. But if you really didn't know...

I mentioned Twinspires, Xpressbet, and Premier in my previous post.

Each has an in house rebate program...

Oaklawn sells their signal to them (as well as others.)

The truth is Oaklawn does sell their signal to rebate shops. (Just not all rebate shops.)



-jp

.

Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

Are not the rebate shops owned by those entities contracted separately with the tracks and bets must be made through them to get the rebates?

I'm not talking about the "normal" rebates from what I'd call "normal" ADWs.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by classhandicapper

How about stuff like this?

Do you go to Belmont at 6:30 in the morning to watch your horses work out?

Do you read the condition book every time it comes out and actively discuss where to run the horses with partners and the trainer?

Do you do private handicapping tasks to help spot your horses?

Do you make a special trip to Belmont to see your horse after a victory so you can personally feed it a treat?

Certainly wouldn't hurt your cause. The problems exist with people who make income from sources outside of racing and then buy a few horses. While they will try to make a profit they might be hard pressed to prove that they are in the business of racing horses.

[Jeff P]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

Are not the rebate shops owned by those entities contracted separately with the tracks and bets must be made through them to get the rebates?

I'm not talking about the "normal" rebates from what I'd call "normal" ADWs.

To my way of thinking:

There is zero difference between the "regular" ADW (Twinspires, Xpressbet, etc.) with an in-house VIP rebate program and the so called rebate house (RGS, Elite, etc.)

Both compete against each other for the business of the high volume parimutuel player.

Both offer better than "normal" rebates, auto-generation of wagers, and VIP concierge service to the high volume parimutuel player.

Shouldn't the customer be the one to choose which company/service best meets his or her needs?

Why is RGS, Elite considered BAD?

Why is Twinspires, Xpressbet (who offer the same services) considered GOOD?

IDK. Maybe I'm the one who doesn't get it...


-jp

.

[AltonKelsey]

Originally Posted by Fager Fan

I've wondered if most of the jocks actually need their agents. ;-)

I suspect a good agent is worth twice what he's paid

Any agents here want to dispute that?

[Andy Asaro]

This is all about lowering take for everyone and growing the game by selling it as a gambling game of skill.

[Fager Fan]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

To my way of thinking:

There is zero difference between the "regular" ADW (Twinspires, Xpressbet, etc.) with an in-house VIP rebate program and the so called rebate house (RGS, Elite, etc.)

Both compete against each other for the business of the high volume parimutuel player.

Both offer better than "normal" rebates, auto-generation of wagers, and VIP concierge service to the high volume parimutuel player.

Shouldn't the customer be the one to choose which company/service best meets his or her needs?

Why is RGS, Elite considered BAD?

Why is Twinspires, Xpressbet (who offer the same services) considered GOOD?

IDK. Maybe I'm the one who doesn't get it...


-jp

.

All of them get too much of the takeout, so I consider all of them "bad" for business. A bit better is if one is owned by a track and one can see that one way or another, the profits are being put back into racing. This is why I use only xpressbet as I see the ways Stronach puts money back into the sport.

But the rebate shops get WAY too much off the takeout, resulting in them being able to rebate so much. So from a viewpoint of what's best for the sport, I see the rebate shops as horrendous. From the viewpoint of the player, I'd be irritated that these guys get perks that I don't get, and the result is driving down the odds on many of the same "value" horses that I land on. From the viewpoint of both, I think the whales are responsible for the extreme odd changes at the last second, which makes handicappers infuriated with racing and think shenanigans are happening, so therefore bad PR, and for the handicappers, they can't beat the last second bets.

As to your original post that I was responding to, I am assuming (perhaps wrongly) that the rebate shops, even the ones owned by tracks, are contracted separately from their regular ADW, and the clients of each are therefore separated.

[Jeff P]

Same parent company - which I'm guessing - has both a wholesale and a retail contract with the host track.

From what I can tell - VIP clients treated very differently.


-jp

.

[Fox]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

Provided he/she is willing to jump through a few hoops:

The whale who wants rebates while betting into Oaklawn's pools is able to do so.

-jp

.

Whales jumping through hoops. It happens.

[Jeff P]

I think that jockey is clearly not trying.


-jp

.

[jay68802]

Originally Posted by Jeff P

I think that jockey is clearly not trying.


-jp

.

Needs to go left handed, don't you think?